Are we gonna keep on living in a fantasy world in which Harden isn't > Evans?

And exactly how do you know this? Manu entered the NBA at 25. Harden was 20 last year as a rookie. Harden's first two years have been every bit as good as Manu's. Nostradamus, how do you have any clue that "Harden will never be...even close" to Manu?

It's interesting so many people who don't watch the Thunder are suddenly experts on their players.

 

Harden > Terry.

 

I don't know the answer to this. Manu was fortunate to be on a great Spurs team that won championships in his 1st, 3rd, and 5th seasons in the league. Statistically, his best regular season was during his 6th year (when the Spurs lost to the Lakers in the WCF - Gasol trade year). His best playoffs was probably 05 (Manu's 3rd year in the league)

2007-2008 reg season 19.5pts, 4.8reb, 4.5ast, .460FG, .401-3pt, .860FT
2004-2005 playoffs 20.8pts, 5.8reb, 4.2ast, .507FG, .438-3pt, .795FT

Harden is only a notch or two below that level right now. It's a huge step to take because Manu's peak was pretty awesome, but I'd say Harden has this potential. The scoring, reb, and ast numbers look like they'll get there, but the biggest question mark is the 3pt jumper. Whether or not he has a few years of 38%+ 3pt shooting will take him from a Caron Butler peak (still awesome) to a Manu peak (a little better).

 

Okay I can see your getting defensive here because your twisting my words.

Who else can you name that can eurostep around defenders and then dunk the finish?

I said before and ill say it again, Manu's 2nd and 3rd jumps are crazy. athleticism is not all about your first jump.

Its like saying Tony Parker or TJ Ford in their primes weren't athletic because they didn't have a great max vert, they were still quicker than anyone else on the court.

 

Harden IS a bust for a top 3 pick. Top 3 picks are supposed be franchise changers and superstars. He isn't even considered a star, and is squarely in roleplayer status. He has one nice game and suddenly he's better than Stephen Curry? Gimme a break, I'd take Curry over harden any day of the week.

Evans is overrated, and is probably this generation's incarnation of allen iverson.

 

That's not a fair assessment on Harden.

Harden has to play behind TWO franchise players (and a developing Jeff Green). There isn't much room for growth for Harden. He averages only around 20-25 minutes per game, that is not near enough time for a player to adapt and learn the game.

Just look at McGrady. He played behind Vince Carter and that impeded his growth as a player. For his first 3 seasons he was anything but a star player, only a good role player.

Not to mention, OKC had to draft needs, they already have so much potential in their team and there just isn't room for more project players.

Remember, when they drafted Harden they had Jeff Green (5th pick), Kevin Durant (2nd Pick) and Russell Westbrook (4th pick). That is A LOT of young developing talent with huge upsides.

 

What do you mean playing behind? He's a SG, Durant and WB are sf and pg. Carter and Tmac played the same position (Tmac was a SG when he was starting out), that's not the same thing at all. The only thing which prevented Harden from starting from day 1 was his lack of playing ability. He's also only getting 25 minutes a game because of his lack of playing ability, if he was on par with Durant and WB he'd be getting the same as those two.

Is that fair? No, but he if really was worthy of a top 3 pick he would be doing the same things those two are now. Instead, he's playing more of a "glue guy" role on the level of Shane Battier or Wilson Chandler or Landry Fields.

 

He is playing behind Durant and Westbrook because those 2 dominate the ball.

Before Green was traded, the starting lineup consisted of Durant, Westbrook and Green. Three guys with huge upsides learning to play the game. If Harden played in the starting lineup, there is no way he would get the ball.

And fyi Harden IS doing what Durant and Westbrook are doing as of now. He has been playing terrific in the playoffs. He has shown that if given extended minutes he can and will produce.

And calling Harden a bust is unfair. A bust is a player who played far worst than expectations, and that is not Harden. Kwame Brown is a bust, Adam Morrison is a bust, but James Harden? Not so much.

 

Going back on #3 overall picks, I guess Harden falls somewhere in the middle over the last decade.

So far, he's behind Pau, Melo, Deron Williams, and probably Ben Gordon.
He's ahead of complete busts like Darius Miles, Mike Dunleavy, Adam Morrison.
As of now, he's in that group with OJ Mayo and Al Horford. Don't know where Derick Favors goes yet.

In his own draft class, he's only clearly behind Blake Griffin and Stephan Curry. I wouldn't consider him a bust when compared to Curry, because Curry was more of a gem find, seeing as he dropped to 7th.

Basically, imo Harden has been a solid pick so far for OKC. He's sort of right where he was supposed to be picked that year, and he also is performing in the middle of the pack for 3rd overall picks over the last decade.

 

Not getting defensive or twisting anything at all. You said what you said.

If you want to say Manu's "eurostep" move was crazy, OK. Crazy athletic? We agree to disagree. I think the reason he got to rim so much was because he was left-handed. He had a dunk against the Pistons in the Finals that blew everyone away. Either the game announcers or a studio guy later on commented that players kept cutting him so much slack because they didn't expect him to throw it down left-handed. If Manu was a righty, that move wouldn't be as special IMO.

 

Its hilarious.

Two weeks ago, nobody would even be debating Harden v. Evans.

Don't get me wrong, Harden is a better fit for OKC and probably was a better pick for OKC. But no way he compares to Evans as a player. Come on.

 

What happened to him? Huge dropoff this year from his first 2 years.

Tho he did play great in the postseason.

 

A fallacy. You ever watch all star games? Don't they all find some way to get enough shots? There are more than 68 possessions in a standard NBA game, as long as your teammates aren't ball hogs you would still get the ball. Like I said the only reason he didn't start or play large minutes is because of his lack of playing ability. This season Harden's "leveled-up" somewhat so his being trusted with more minutes.

So you're telling me Harden's play right now is worthy of an allstar spot? Because that's practically what WB and Durant has done. Scoring 16 pts isn't exactly what I'd call "on par" with those two.

I guess we have different expectations. I expect a top 3 pick to be an above average starter at the very least, not someone who still comes off the bench and only plays 25 mins a night after 2 years. He's actually quite lucky they grabbed Durant and DW before him, he's been relieved of the pressure of having to be a superduper star from day 1. Look at the criticism John Wall and the top 2 pick in Philly have received this season, and Harden's produced less than those guys.

He isn't a bust for an NBA player, but he is a bust for a top 3 pick. Like what Memphis X said, if Mayo averaged what Harden has averaged he'd be deemed a bust.

 

Evans is more talented but he's shooting way too much and is approaching Corey Maggette level of selfishness. This season he's played like absolute garbage and cost his team to lose a ton of games.

 

I'm sure this is what Isiah said when he had Marbury and traded for Francis. I'm sure he pointed to Marbury's high assist numbers to prove he wasn't a ball hog. All start games have way more possessions than a regular games because they are playing no defense and always taking quick shots.

 

What are you talking about? Mayo and Horford are clearly leagues above Harden at this point. Hell, if the Thunder offered Harden straight up for Horford Atlanta would refuse. He's basically played like a poor man's Thabo Sefalosha prior to the playoffs.

Austin Daye, TY Lawson, Brandon Jennings, De Juan Blair, Jrue Holiday have all outperformed his at this point. If you exclude his "breakout" this playoffs Harden would rank near the bottom of the draft.

He's not worth a top 3 pick. I'm pretty sure if we bottomed out our roster and ended up with Harden as our top 3 pick very few people here would call it a "solid pick". Just to make myself clear, I'm not saying Harden won't be a fine player, he is. However top 3 picks are supposed to perform at a high level from day 1, that's why their top 3 picks and not late first round picks. He hasn't done that at all.

 

The point I was trying to make is you can never have enough scorers on the floor. Just because you have WB, Durant and Green doesn't mean there's no place for Harden, in fact on our team C-bud, Scola, Lowry and Kevin Martin all got a fair number of shots a game. The only reason Harded didn't get more PT was because he couldn't beat out Sefalosha, and not because there wasn't enough shots for him to take.

 

Have you been living under a rock? If it was based off this season alone, I wouldn't want Evans on the Rockets for free. He was impressively awful, not to mention his ballchucking tendencies just augment those problems.

 

when Harden gets too expensive for the Thunder to keep..


bring him on down to Houston =]

 

You did not honestly compare a regular season game to an all star game. I don't even need to respond to that, you know you can't compare all star games to regular season games. And the problem is the ball ONLY goes to Durant and Westbrook. Westbrook IS a ballhog.

How often does Durant get the ball? Westbrook doesn't give up the ball often, so what makes you think Harden will get the ball from Westbrook? The ball ALWAYS goes to Durant and Westbrook first, Harden is the third option.

Is Harden worthy of an All-star spot? Probably not. But that was not my point. He is doing for the OKC team what Durant and Westbrook are doing. Harden has been doing the scorer, the rebounding, the passing and the defending. He is a vital piece of the OKC team's success, and how far they go often depends on how big he comes up off the bench.

It's like saying, is Jameer Nelson worthy of an all-star spot? He certainly isn't putting up big numbers, but he is a vital piece of Orlando's success. If he can do for Orlando what Dwight has done (step up, score etc.) then he is every bit as important to the Magic's success as Dwight.