1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

A non-violent Intifada. Israel Will Mimic Qadafi and Syria

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, May 18, 2011.

  1. glynch

    glynch Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    18,080
    Likes Received:
    3,605
    Israel has traditionally used deadly force against non-violent protests and they will not be an easy nut to crack. They will make the response to non-volent liberation movements by the British in India and the Afrikaners in So. Africa look like moderates. A deliberate constant attempt to stoke and heighten the understandable fears of anti-semitism have made many totally insensitive to Palestinian concerns.

    Why should we in the US be concerned about an oil-less land about the size of greater Houston with a population about the same? Simple. We have just spent trillions on a couple of wars that Israel and their neo-con buds lobbied furiously for. US support for unjust Israeli occupation is defintely one of the major reasons for 911 and Muslim terrorism which costs us daily in airport security, tens if not thousands of security guards at government and other work places etc.

    Hopefully through the growing divestment movement and other means we can support the non-violent Palestinian movement so that all the people in Israeel/Occupied Territories can enjoy the type of liberty and equality we enjoy in this country.
    **************

    After clashes during Palestinian protests, Israeli army ponders tactics
    Text Size PrintE-mailReprintsBy Joel Greenberg, Published: May 16
    JERUSALEM — A day after mass protests at Israel’s borders set off deadly clashes, Israelis expressed concern that an alarming new chapter had opened in their country’s conflict with the Palestinians.

    “The nightmare scenario that Israel has feared since its establishment came true: that Palestinian refugees would simply start walking from their camps across the border, and with their own two feet try to realize the right of return,” wrote Aluf Benn, a commentator in the Haaretz newspaper.

    ...“This shows that the occupation can be toppled,” Mahmoud al-Zahar, a leader of the militant group Hamas, said in a telephone interview from the Gaza Strip. “The role of the people has proven itself. Next time, millions will participate.”

    The protests, inspired by the uprisings sweeping the Arab world, have conjured up images on both sides of the conflict of waves of dispossessed Palestinians rising up to reclaim homes they lost more than 60 years ago.

    ...“The Palestinians’ transition from suicide bomber terrorism to mass demonstrations, deliberately unarmed, will confront us with challenges that are not so simple,” Defense Minister Ehud Barak acknowledged in a television interview.
    Prompted by the recent upheavals in the Arab world, the Israeli military has been preparing for possible large-scale popular demonstrations by Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, said Brig. Gen. Yoav Mordechai, the army’s chief spokesman.

    But soldiers in the Israeli-held Golan Heights were caught unprepared when hundreds of Palestinian protesters from Syria breached a border fence and then tore it down, pelting soldiers with rocks before they were driven back by gunfire, which killed at least two people

    After clashes during Palestinian protests, Israeli army ponders tactics
    Text Size PrintE-mailReprintsBy Joel Greenberg, Published: May 16
    JERUSALEM — A day after mass protests at Israel’s borders set off deadly clashes, Israelis expressed concern that an alarming new chapter had opened in their country’s conflict with the Palestinians.

    “The nightmare scenario that Israel has feared since its establishment came true: that Palestinian refugees would simply start walking from their camps across the border, and with their own two feet try to realize the right of return,” wrote Aluf Benn, a commentator in the Haaretz newspaper.

    62
    Comments

    Weigh InCorrections?



    .The worry came amid intense scrutiny of Sunday’s clashes, in which Israel’s military used gunfire to repel Palestinian protesters who marched from Syria, Lebanon, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and breached the frontier in the Golan Heights.

    Among Palestinians, there was a sense of satisfaction at what was widely seen as the success of the coordinated protests, which were held on the anniversary of the establishment of Israel in 1948.

    “This shows that the occupation can be toppled,” Mahmoud al-Zahar, a leader of the militant group Hamas, said in a telephone interview from the Gaza Strip. “The role of the people has proven itself. Next time, millions will participate.”

    The protests, inspired by the uprisings sweeping the Arab world, have conjured up images on both sides of the conflict of waves of dispossessed Palestinians rising up to reclaim homes they lost more than 60 years ago.

    Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, who is scheduled to visit Washington this week amid growing pressure to produce a diplomatic initiative to reinvigorate the peace process, said the protests were aimed at Israel’s destruction.

    The demonstrations presented a new type of challenge for the battle-tested Israeli army, which faces the prospect of masses of unarmed protesters, either coming from across the border or from inside the Palestinian territories.

    “The Palestinians’ transition from suicide bomber terrorism to mass demonstrations, deliberately unarmed, will confront us with challenges that are not so simple,” Defense Minister Ehud Barak acknowledged in a television interview.

    Prompted by the recent upheavals in the Arab world, the Israeli military has been preparing for possible large-scale popular demonstrations by Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, said Brig. Gen. Yoav Mordechai, the army’s chief spokesman.

    But soldiers in the Israeli-held Golan Heights were caught unprepared when hundreds of Palestinian protesters from Syria breached a border fence and then tore it down, pelting soldiers with rocks before they were driven back by gunfire, which killed at least two people.

    The White House accused the Syrian government of inciting the violence to divert attention from the demonstrations against the Syrian regime. “Such behavior is unacceptable,” press secretary Jay Carney said.

    Ten protesters were killed in clashes on Lebanon’s frontier with Israel.

    “The barrier of fear has been broken,” Yoav Limor, military correspondent for Israel’s Channel 1 television, told viewers. “The army has to prepare for a new reality and figure out what to do
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...onders-tactics/2011/05/16/AFTxLH5G_story.html
     
  2. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,168
    Likes Received:
    48,335
    The Palestinians should've embraced non-violence a long time ago and in my opinion one of the biggest failures of the Palestinian movement is never having a Ghandi or Mandela like figure who could steer them in that direction.

    That said I am skeptical of this latest movement considering it seems suspect at a time when Syria is cracking down on protestors in Syrian cities that suddenly a whole lot of Palestinians show up at the Golan Heights. I have a hard time buying that this is some sort of organic movement among Palestinians and not some attempt by the Assad Regime with Hamas' help to distract things from whats going on in Syria.
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. glynch

    glynch Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    18,080
    Likes Received:
    3,605
    You could be right about Syria. However the Arab spring and even Syria cuts both way in terms of inspiring non-violent resistance against armed repression. I think eveyone has been expecting a Palestinian movement inspired by Tunisia and Egypt.

    If you cared, you could do research and find that the Israelis are very aware of the threat to apartheid of non-violent resistance and have routinely nipped in the bud very decisively , through imprisonment or deportation, any emerging Ghandis.
     
  4. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,168
    Likes Received:
    48,335
    Actually I already know that the Israelis have done that but the Israelis are not all powerful and the Palestinian exile community has also wielded power that could've been used to shape the movement. FOr that matter when Arafat came back and established the PA he could've become the Palestinian Mandela.

    I blame the Israelis a lot for the inability to have a lasting peace but the Palestinians deserve blame also. It wasn't like Apartheid South Africa was treating the ANC with kid gloves. The Palestinians have been ill served by their leaders who have either been too violent, too corrupt or too cowardly to undertake a lasting peace.

    Both the Israelis and Palestinians have been ill served by their leaders.
     
  5. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    51,807
    Likes Received:
    20,465
    This is spot on. The Palestinians have been stuck with horrible options for leadership. And the leaders have served their people poorly.
     
  6. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    21,112
    Likes Received:
    22,572
    Completely agree, I think the Israelis and Palestinians have been screwed out of a lot of peace by their leaders.

    People get tired of bloodshed and tension, it's just way too much weight to constantly be thinking about peace and stability, especially if there's no end in sight. The young people don't want this shadow hanging over them anymore.
     
  7. glynch

    glynch Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    18,080
    Likes Received:
    3,605
    There is an element of truth to this, but it sort of reminds me of claiming that African American leadership was not the best during pre Civil Rights America. It would sort of miss the greater failing of the segregationists
     
    #7 glynch, May 19, 2011
    Last edited: May 19, 2011
  8. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,168
    Likes Received:
    48,335
    Such an analogy ignores the complexity and history of the Palestinian and Israeli situation along with the US history of civil rights. It also ignores that while Israel as the superior does hold a large part of the blame but essentially ignores the very real suffering dealt to Israelis at the hands of the extremist Palestinians.
     
  9. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2005
    Messages:
    8,968
    Likes Received:
    3,389
    They more or less did embrace non-violence in the late 80s and early 90s. And it was an organic Palestinian movement. (at a time when Arab states had far more influence) One of the hallmarks of the first intifada were large scale strikes by Palestinian businesses and boycotts of Israeli products. (interesting note there, RC Cola is actually manufactured in the west bank whereas coke is imported from Israel so during the first intifada coke was boycotted by Palestinian businesses)

    At best the only violence then was throwing rocks at soldiers which even then generated sympathy since those soldiers retaliated with tear gas and rubber bullets on children.

    In fact its pretty safe to argue that this is one of the reasons Oslo happened in the first place. The negative response to Israel in the wake of large waves of boycotts and protests forced Rabin to open negotiations with the PLO. It also forced the US and Israel to recognize the PLO (which until then was classified as a terrorist organization)

    I dont think this new call will amount to much but the Palestinians have done something similar before and it was followed by landmark changes that gave hope that peace might actually happen.
     
  10. AroundTheWorld

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    83,288
    Likes Received:
    62,281
    First. Okay, maybe second.
     
  11. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    51,807
    Likes Received:
    20,465
    But the African American leadership weren't wholesale corrupt like the PA has been.

    Regardless of the faulty leadership of the Palestinians it doesn't excuse Israel to continue their Apartheid system against the Palestinians.
     
  12. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2002
    Messages:
    46,550
    Likes Received:
    6,132
    This.
     
  13. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,168
    Likes Received:
    48,335
    I wouldn't consider rock throwing to be non-violent. Its not the same as an armed insurrection but its also not Ghandian civil disobedience.

    I agree with you though that the widespread nature of the first Intifada did pressure the Israeli government to negotiate. It also showed that the PLO in Tunis didn't have much control of the situation in the West Bank and Gaza so they were also more willing to come to the negotiation table.

    Once the Oslo framework was in place and the PA was established there was a brief period of peace which neither side maintained.
     
  14. Landry92

    Landry92 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2009
    Messages:
    754
    Likes Received:
    12
    You can't blame them for being Violent but it wasn't useful

    One thing people overlook was the fact that they're up against a Foreign govermant instead of one that's representing them. 10 years ago non violence against an envader would've been stupid today is Genuis and more effective, because of Media.
     
  15. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Messages:
    16,172
    Likes Received:
    2,823
    Yep, non-violent resistance never would have worked against a foreign government more than 10 years ago.

    Totally unrelated linkage.
     
  16. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    21,112
    Likes Received:
    22,572
    How many investogations into abuse of power with insufficient independence does it take to realize that the Israeli government is deceiving Israelis and the international community?

    I've been saying that the Israeli government has been wreckless in recent years, and this is just another unfortunate sad incident. I didn't think it deserved its own thread, but I definitely wanted to highlight yet another improportionate and excessive action from the Israeli government. I really can't wait for Israeli people to get their act together and put pressure on their government.
     
  17. AroundTheWorld

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    83,288
    Likes Received:
    62,281
    no kidding
     
  18. ILoveTheRockets

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,047
    Likes Received:
    62
    The tensions will never end between the Palestinians and Isreal.

    They both have the New Orleans ghetto mentality. Which will carry on throughout the youth because they see their mothers,fathers,uncles,aunts,sisters,brothers die right in front of their eyes.

    Those type of memories can never be erased, nor the tensions that come along with them.

    And the New Orleans ghetto mentality I am referring to is " Retaliation Is A Must"
     
  19. Rashmon

    Rashmon Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2000
    Messages:
    21,234
    Likes Received:
    18,250
    glynch, we probably agree on much more than we disagree, and chances are I would agree with the premise of most of the article, BUT, I stopped reading here.
     

Share This Page