Horry vs Pippen . . I cannot grant Pippen Dominance. However. . . . I recall Grant V Horry in the rockets series. . .and I don't think he nor Rodman would have much for Horry Actually didn't the Lakers have . . .goodness his name eludes me now. . but he played on the bulls as well . .. taller point guard. RON HARPER 1st Laker Championship Squad 4 Ron Harper 6-6 215 1/20/64 Miami (Ohio) '86 14 8 Kobe Bryant 6-7 210 8/23/78 Hi Sch.-Lower Merion 4 41 Glen Rice 6-8 220 5/28/67 Michigan '89 11 45 A.C. Green 6-9 225 10/4/63 Oregon State '85 15 34 Shaq O'Neal 7-1 312 3/6/72 Louisiana State '92 8 17 Rick Fox 6-7 242 7/24/69 North Carolina '91 9 5 Robert Horry 6-10 235 8/25/70 Alabama '92 8 2 Derek Fisher 6-1 200 8/9/74 Ark-Little Rock'96 4 20 Brian Shaw 6-6 200 3/22/66 CA-Sta.Barbara '88 11 16 John Salley 6-11 255 5/16/64 Georgia Tech '86 10 40 Travis Knight 7-0 235 9/13/74 Connecticut '96 4 3 Devean George 6-8 220 8/29/77 Augsburg '99 1 10 Tyronn Lue 6-0 175 5/3/77 Nebraska '98 2 11 John Celestand 6-4 178 3/6/77 Villanova '99 1 1st Bulls Championship Squad 10 B.J. Armstrong G 6-2 175 1 University of Iowa 24 Bill Cartwright C 7-1 245 10 University of San Francisco 54 Horace Grant F-C 6-10 215 3 Clemson University 14 Craig Hodges G 6-2 190 8 California State University, Long Beach 2 Dennis Hopson G-F 6-5 200 3 Ohio State University 23 Michael Jordan G-F 6-6 195 6 University of North Carolina 34 Stacey King F-C 6-11 230 1 University of Oklahoma 53 Cliff Levingston F 6-8 210 8 Wichita State University 5 John Paxson G 6-2 185 7 University of Notre Dame 32 Will Perdue C 7-0 240 5 2 Vanderbilt University 33 Scottie Pippen F-G 6-8 210 3 University of Central Arkansas 42 Scott Williams F-C 6-10 230 R University of North Carolina So you will have to figure out WHICH TEAMS are going against each other. Rocket River
Man o man, you have lost it. I think you are the victim of a fuzzy memory. When they decided to flex, the Bulls defense in those days was so good they crushed the life out of teams. More than any squad I've ever seen in 40+ years of watching the NBA, the Bulls had the ability to turn on the heat and completely crush the spirit of opponents. They didn't just do it with MJ going off and being unstoppable, they did it by totally disrobing teams and turning their offenses into complete trash. I wish there were some extended clips people could watch today so they could understand what the Bulls were all about. There is a mistaken notion that 90% of what made them great was MJ high-flying every night. Back to the subject: As I see it, in his MDE form, Shaq would have done OK. Kobe would have had a lot of trouble. Bulls would have won probably 4-2. BTW, good topic to debate. You pose a valid question, but I seriously disagree with your opinion.
it matters, shaq was pure dominance in the early part of this decade, you can't deny it. and remember, he already beat a bulls team even though a lot of people put an asterik on that series
No. It would be an enjoyable series though, perhaps even go 7 games. Aside from the fact that IMO, 2 out of those 3 champoinships that the Lakers won were lucky(Blazers epic collapse in Game 7 of the WCF's in 2000 and the 2002 Big Shot BobGm 5/Dicky Bavetta called Game 7 robbery of the Kings.), but that 2001 squad was about as dominant as I have seen in recent memory. They were killing everybody. Plus, Could Kobe score as well in the hand-check era?
The point is that they never did it against an elite team with a big man like shaq. Patrick never had a robin on his team. It really wasn't until utah that they had to play against a dominant big man and by then they had Rodman to help guard Malone. As soon as the bulls got beat by shaq they went out to get them rodman. Then shaq goes to the lakers and duncan is just coming into his own. Jordan's bulls were partly lucky that they got to play teams they matched up well against.
If you say so. By your definition, most NBA champions are "lucky". It's best not to go there, especially with a 6-time champion. In all honesty, saying the Bulls never beat a big man like Shaq is silly (and I'm being very kind). How many Shaq's have there been in NBA history?
And that's the common misconception. Folks think the Bulls didn't have size simply because their bigs weren't scoring. Their bigs were very solid at defending, rebounding and hitting open shots. Yeah, Shaq will get his 30+ but he is gonna work for it, and have to knock down some FT's to get it. And at the end of the game he isn't gonna see the ball, and Kobe isn't gonna do Pippen or MJ on the regular....so then what? These were the Bulls centers from their title years: 1991-1993 Cartwright (7-1) Perdue (7-0) King (6-11) Williams (6-10) Grant (6-10) 1996 Longley (7-2) Rodman (6-7) Wennington (7-0) Salley (6-11) Edwards (7-0) This team swept Shaq that postseason. He had 2 monster games that series as well. Notice the fouls on their bigs. They would just hack him and make him shoot FT's. http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199605210CHI.html 1997 Longley (7-2) Dele (6-9) Rodman (6-7) Parish (7-0) 1998 Longley (7-2) Rodman (6-7) Wennington (7-0)
....remember that San Antonio also won a few titles during Shaq's "prime" and the strategy was to foul Shaq. The only reason SA didn't win more titles was a combination of some ref sanctioned favoritism(the no call on Fisher when he landed on Brent Barry) and just plain dumb luck(Fisher's ridiculous turnaround buzzer beater near the timeline)....and that's not mentioning the actual ref con job in that Kings/LA series. Shaq not seeming so dominate now, huh... Phil couldn't even play him in close games because of Hack a Shaq strategy. So unless Shaq could destroy the 96 Bulls with a 20 point lead in the 4th, then I don't think Kobe+Shaq on the bench could have beat the Bulls.
You're forgetting Barkley. Heck, the Lakers had Vlade too. And I don't know how Jordan's Bulls got "lucky", as he faced nearly every elite team during his six rings, from the Jazz to the Knicks to the Magic in the playoffs. Hakeem and Robinson are the exception, and Robinson would be utterly destroyed at Jordan's hands.
Eh Jordan is better than Kobe but Kobe could still hang, he has quite a bit of size on him. Shaq would dominate but yea fouling in the 4th would get him... Comes down to Pippen. 7 games coin flip in my mind.
Dennis Rodman on a good day, might have been 6,7 and barely 230; he could play great against power forwards, but he was often overwhelmed against quality centers. Played outstanding one on one defense, but his post defense was not the same as say someone like Mutombo or Olajuwon. MJ was often credited for breaking mold for a team being able to win Titles without a dominant big man and being sort of a giant killer. He did that ,but I always thought and heard that Rick Barry kind of did it, too. Do you realize how good Patrick Ewing and the Knicks were in the early to mid 90s (They were the one team that actually came the closest to beating the "championship" Bulls at full strength)? http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ewingpa01.html Do you realize how bad-ass the late 80s and early 90s Pistons were? You realize they surpassed the great Lakers and Celtics teams of that era with arguably less talent (but younger though). How much of a buzzsaw they were at the time? Do you realize how many 60 win teams Chicago beat in a playoff series during their six title runs? 1992-93 Phoenix Suns (62-20) 1992-93 New York Knicks (60-22) 1995-96 Seattle Supersonics (64-18) 1995-96 Orlando Magic (60-22) 1996-97 Utah Jazz (64-18) 1996-97 Miami Heat (61-21) 1997-98 Utah Jazz (62-20) From 91-98, 7-0 against 60 or more win teams, while only being eliminated twice from the playoffs (Knicks in 94 and Orlando in 95); 6-0 in the NBA Finals. The Bulls also defeated the Lakers (in 91) and the Trailblazers (in 92) in the NBA Finals. Those teams somehow managed to get through the West without a dominant big man. While, they also knocked off the previous Champion Pistons in a swept, who they also in the previous season took to Game 7 in the Eastern Conference Finals. In the Shaq/Kobe years and the Kobe w/Gasol-Bynum-Odom, the Lakers have only beaten one 60 win team, in all of their 5 title runs. 2001-02 Sacramento Kings 1999-00 Portland Trailblazers; 2008-09 Orlando Magic (were at 59 wins) 2000-01; 2001-02 San Antonio Spurs/ 2003-04 Minnesota Timberwolves (were at 58 wins) They also had luxury of playing Philadelphia 76ers and New Jersey Nets. Moreover, they were beaten in 02-03 by the 60 win Spurs and crushed in Game 6 of the NBA Finals by the eventual champion 2007-08 Boston Celtics who won 66 games. Combined in both the Shaq/Kobe and Kobe and Co. (Gasol; Odom; Bynum); they are 1-2 against 60 win teams. 5-2 in the NBA Finals. Remember, 3 of those 5 wins are against the Nets; 76ers; and Magic. Game 6 of 2003 NBA Western Conference Semi-Finals (Defending Champions) Game 5 of 2004 NBA Finals (Western Conference Champ) Game 7 of 2006 NBA Western Conference First Round (blew 3-1 lead) Game 5 of 2007 NBA Western Conference First Round Game 6 of 2008 NBA Finals (Western Conference Champ) Game 4 of 2011 NBA Western Conference Semi-Finals (Defending Champions) Look eerily similar. I'm going to say now, and say again the Lakers were lucky in some of those years they won the title, especially 2000; 2002; 2009; and 2010 to an extent. From 91-98, these are the teams the Bulls beat with a good to great center and/or teams with a pretty good front line they faced in playoffs). In 1996, The Bulls managed to beat multiple time all star center in every round of the Eastern Conference playoffs, Heat (Alonzo Mourning); Knicks (Patrick Ewing); and Magic (Shaquille O'Neal). 1990-91 New York Knicks (Patrick Ewing-HOF C; Charles Oakley; Anthony Mason) Detroit Pistons (James Edwards; Bill Laimbeer; Dennis Rodman w/ Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars in the backcourt) 1991-92 New York Knicks (Patrick Ewing-HOF C; Charles Oakley; Anthony Mason) Cleveland Cavs (Brad Daughterty- All Star C; Hot Rod Williams; Larry Nance) Portland Trailblazers (Kevin Duckworth; Buck Williams/Cliff Robinson; Jerome Kersey w/ Clyde Drexler and Terry Porter in the back court) 1992-93 New York Knicks (Patrick Ewing-HOF C; Charles Oakley; Anthony Mason) Cleveland Cavs (Brad Daughterty- All Star C; Hot Rod Williams; Larry Nance) Phoenix Suns (Oliver Miller; A.C. Green; and SUPER Barkley-MVP) 1994-95 Charlotte Hornets (Alonzo Mourning - All Star C/serious HOF nominee; Larry Johnson; and Scott Burrell) 1995-96 Miami Heat (Alonzo Mourning- All Star C/serious HOF nominee) New York Knicks (Patrick Ewing-HOF C; Charles Oakley; Anthony Mason; J.R. Ried) Orlando Magic (Shaquille O'Neal-HOF C/most likely; Horace Grant; Dennis Scott) Seattle Supersonics (Whoever at C between Ervin Johnson and Sam Perkins; Shawn Kemp (when he was a beast); Detlef Schrempf w/ Hersey Hawkins and Gary Payton in the backcourt) 1996-97 Washington Bullets (Gheorgie Mureasan; Chris Webber; and Juwan Howard) Atlanta Hawks (Dikembe Mutombo-HOF likely; Christian Laettner-his best season) Miami Heat (Alonzo Mourning-All C/Serious HOF nominee; P.J. Brown; and Jamal Mashburn) 1997-98 Charlotte Hornets (Vlade Divac; Anthony Mason; and Glen Rice) Indiana Pacers (Rik Smits; Dale Davis/Antonio Davis; older Chris Mullin-young Jalen Rose) Teams with good centers or great frontlines the Lakers faced in their five title runs. 1999-00 Portland Trailblazers (an old broken down Aryvdas Sabonis; Rasheed Wallace; and Scottie Pippen) Indiana Pacers (Rik Smits-his last season; Dale Davis; and Jalen Rose) 2000-01 Portland Trailblazers (an old broken down Aryvdas Sabonis; Rasheed Wallace; and Scottie Pippen) Sacramento Kings (Vlade Divac; Chris Webber; and Peja Stojakovic) San Antonio Spurs (aging David Robinson; Tim Duncan) Philadelphia 76ers (Dikembe Mutombo, at 34 years with Tyrone Hill and George Lynch) 2001-02 Portland Trailblazers (Dale Davis; Rasheed Wallace; Scottie Pippen or Reuben Patternson San Antonio Spurs (an even older David Robinson; Tim Duncan-MVP) Sacramento Kings (Vlade Divac; Chris Webber; and Peja Stojakovic) ------------------ 2003-04 (went to the Finals, did not win) Houston Rockets (young Yao Ming; Kelvin Cato; Jim Jackson) San Antonio Spurs (a much older David Robinson; Tim Duncan) Minnesota Timberwolves (Ervin Johnson/Michael Olowokandi; Kevin Garnett; Trenton Hassell) Lost to Detroit Pistons (Ben Wallace; Rasheed Wallace; Tayshaun Prince) 2007-08 (went to the Finals, did not win) Denver Nuggets (Marcus Camby; Kenyon Martin; Carmelo Anthony) Utah Jazz (Memhet Okur; Carlos Boozer; Andrei Kirlenko) San Antonio Spurs (F.Oberto; Tim Duncan; Bruce Bowen) Lost to Boston Celtics (Kendrick Perkins; Kevin Garnett; Paul Pierce) ------------------------------------ 2008-09 Utah Jazz (Memhet Okur; Carlos Boozer; and Andrei Kirlenko) Houston Rockets (Yao Ming - only 3 out of 7 games; No Dikembe Mutombo; Luis Scola; Ron Artest; and Chuck Hayes; also you could say no Tracy McGrady in the backcourt) Denver Nuggets (Nene; Kenyon Martin; and Camelo Anthony) Orlando Magic (Dwight Howard-Best C in the league; Rashard Lewis; Hedo Turkoglu) 2009-10 Oklahoma City Thunder (Nenad Kristic; Serge Ibaka; and Kevin Durant) Utah Jazz (again) Phoenix Suns (Are they even worth mentioning with their small ball antics) Boston Celtics (Kendrick Perkins- DNP in game 7; Kevin Garnett; and Paul Pierce) It seems like the Lakers are the ones who have habit of not beating really good teams or those who are almost evenly matched to a T with them. No way the modern Lakers had a tougher run the Bulls did. But when it comes to toughest playoff runs ever, I give that to the 93-95 Rockets and 88-90 Pistons. The Celtics, even though they lost in 87, had some tough teams from 84-87.
The mistake people tend to make in these comparisons is making a broad generalization, as opposed to looking at it team by team. Not every Bulls team (with MJ) was the same, much like every LA team (with Shaq) wasn't the same. What I will say is that the 2001 Lakers, come playoff time, were the most dominant basketball team I've ever seen play the game. If you're talking about the peak Lakers versus the peak Bulls, I'll take that Lakers group by a hair.
Umm, Kobe and Shaq's Lakers barely beat the Trail Blazers and the Kings in 2 different series. Of course they would have taken the Lakers, except maybe the 2001 Lakers, but certainly the 2000 and 2002 Lakers.
This thread is meaningless without Goodbug... Paging Goodbug..... Oh wait a minute... he is busy with his 6 digits annual salary job in New York....
