Yes I have, was awesome. I have to stress that FOR ME the awesomeness didn't come from facing a well-decorated black cube, it came from being feeling equality and unity with so many people. I actually got the chance to pray on the first line (best seats in the house) while hearing tons of people join into the same purpose of trying to connect with God. I had conversations with families who have lived right next to the Kaaba and done every prayer there for hundreds and hundreds of years. Everything else seemed small in the big picture of human unity. You stop caring about differences and start caring about similarities. Very good experience for me, probably for very different reasons than other people. All the hype I had heard seemed true, but the source was human beings rather than the Kaaba itself, which was very impressive to me more as a historical symbol. I wish non-Muslims could experience that, but I do see the logic in trying to reduce non-Muslim participation. I can't say I would have understood the experience the way I do now if the place was flooded with cameras, tourists, people being critical of insignificant things, salespeople, etc. If there was a way to let in only those who are serious about participating, then that would be great, regardless of their religious beliefs. On the other hand, I did see a few Muslims there who were more interested in drawing sectarian lines than joining everyone else. I don't know if there's a good way to solve this problem. I was perplexed enough that there's a pizza hut and starbucks which is a 5 minute walk from the Kaaba itself, and that some landowners were unwilling to accept any amount of compensation for their land surrounding the Kaaba (in order to expand the walls and allow more people to participate.
I don't think it's at ground level. In any case, from descriptions that we hear around here, I can tell you that the video is either real or 99.9% accurate about what the Kaaba looks like inside.
No this is not fair. The intention is not discriminatory. The intention is to protect the value - there can't be tourists there. This is a place where hundreds and thousands of people are trying to engage in group meditation. The point is to avoid distractions like sales people, tourists, journalists, etc and have people there who are actually interested in completing the hajj/umra/prayer. I used to have the exact same attitude towards it as you do, but when I got there I realized that the kaaba would hold ZERO value to me if people were chit chatting, there were cameras, people walking around in regular clothing at inappropriate times, etc. Granted, the system is horribly inefficient for achieving that purpose, but I'm not sure there is a perfect system for achieving it. I think this is one case where we should be aware that the intention is good, but the implementation is not great. This is like a cinema telling people to stay quiet during movies - it's not because they hate free speech, it's because they want people to have a good experience and enjoy the show.
In reality, I think the cost of receiving these pilgrims is far far higher than the revenue. There are so many people who come and don't spend a dime, they rip up their passports to stay in the country and become a drain on government money (looking for them, repatriating them if necessary). There are even crooks who come and steel wheelchairs and slippers and all that kind of stuff. I'm sure if it was commercially run, it would generate a humongous profit. But as it is now, a secular country would probably consider it a huge inefficient burden.
I think it's time for this to go to D&D. The reason I started it here is that the OP did not include a topic for debate. But now that it seems a few strands of debate have unravelled, it's probably a good time to move it.
FYI I'm trying to remove the arabic word from the title. I initially copy/pasted it with the title from somewhere else by mistake. I can't seem to edit the title. If mods could do it, would appreciate it.
I don't believe in hovercrafting alchemist zombie Jew carpenters either, but that stuff unified Europe, preserved and built Western civilization after Rome fell, built all of our earliest and best colleges and universities, and helped abolish slavery. Organized, transcontinental religion and the bureaucratic and political organization that comes from it might be the only thing that separated the first from the third world, especially Africa. Just do what I do: sleep late on Sundays and go to the movies on Jewish Department Store Solvency Day.
And I apologize for my part in that, even though I was trying to defend religion (albeit from my view as an atheist). Just observing your posts in general, you seem like a pretty cool cat with a strong sense of faith but a healthy skepticism of how it's interpreted/implemented politically. I had some pretty fun but completely civil and informative debates at U of H with guys like you and always came out of it with new facts and a new friend, so keep on truckin' and thanks for the pics.
Nah, don't worry about it at all man. It's a topic which will always eventually lead to some debate, as long as people have questions. That's a great compliment, thanks dude. I'm on the strange side of many issues but it's great to see someone who might disagree with me and not let it turn into personal attaks. I've enjoyed your posts too.
thank you. In Paul's first letter to Timothy, he lists slavetraders as the equivalent of murderers. He sends a letter to a slaveholder telling him to do the right thing and set his slave free. He said we should all live as servants to one another, no matter our position...that no matter our position, we should carry it out in love for others...whether we're slaves or free. He was speaking into the context of first century Palestine. But make no mistake...he called it evil. You will not find ANYTHING you can remotely twist into support for slavery by Jesus...and you would be ignoring the entire context of his message otherwise if you did.
On the other hand, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and the Western Wall both allow tourists of any faith and their purpose has not been stymied. I saw tons of people at the Western Wall especially that were deep in prayer.
I don't think so -- those guys were a little too relaxed with that camera -- I guarantee you can't film or video in that room.
It's totally different. There's really no need to even debate that. It's a completely different thing.
One of them is royal family, I have no doubt they'd be allowed to do this. But again, it's possible I guess.
Actually, in the United States, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act allows churches and religious organizations to "discriminate" in hiring.
