I have been on the fence in regards to Martin, but i think we should probably hold onto him. Now is the time to try and trade up in the draft, and to get rid of Scola. Ideally we could send our two first and Scola to a team that needs a pf and thinks they have a core already( washinton with wall and mcgee, sacramento with reke and cousins, bucks might bite as well) for the high pick they have. If we gut our team for the sake of being bad then we have no chance at Dwight if he does force his hand and personally i'll take that glimer of hope. However if DM thinks he can get a franchise player by trading Martin on draft day then go for it, And it would be very hard to be angry at a Kevin Martin for two lottery picks deal, to me that is selling high on him.
Its not a personal attack. I think LTF is a good poster and has a lot of good ideas, but this just isnt one of them. The option crap is completely arbitrary made up nonsense. Was Kenny Smith good enough to be second option on a championship squad? Or was it Mario Elie, Vernon Maxwell? Was Steven Jackson? Maybe it was the rotting corpse of David Robinson who was the second option. Was Rip Hamilton? Maybe it was Ben Wallace or Prince. To try and justify moving a player by arguing his place as a particular "option" on a championship squad is just a poor way of constructing an argument. How about Jason Terry? These are all guys who have been the second best player on a championship squad or contender.
Its just that you same stupid people make the same arguments every singl eyear and look like complete idiots when the time comes. It happened with Yao, Tmac, Brooks, Battier we got nothing for also. Just plain dumb logic for me to listen to any of you insane posters logic anymore.
I was taken a little aback from someone acting like know-it-all making that argument about being fouled making your FG% go down. But you’re right, it just makes it easier to not take so seriously.
If we had the opportunity to trade Scola or Martin, I'd go with Scola 11 times out of 10. Unfortunately, I don't think Scola holds that type of trade value. I'm hoping the Rockets look to move Luis ASAP -- we have a young PF waiting in the wings that needs to get minutes to further develop (Patterson). But Scola is an older PF, with a big contract, and just had knee surgery.. I'm not optimistic on his trade value Lars-- what's the point of bringing up teams from over a decade ago? The NBA has changed -- the Rockets played against Ewing + role players. The Spurs played against Sprewell and LJ. Who would we play against in order to win or make the finals now days? LeBron/Wade/Bosh? Pierce/KG/Allen/Rondo? Kobe/Gasol/Odom/Bynum? Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka? The two eras are not comparable.
If we trade Martin for a high draft pick, we might as well try to trade Scola for a pick/expiring contract/young player too. There's no point in trading your best scorer for a draft pick and holding onto aging parts-err--assets as well.
Well the Spurs reference was to 2003 who had to play Shaq/Kobe The Piston reference also had to play Shaq/Kobe I just can't stand the 1st/2nd option crap, it is flawed thinking. If we had a legit #1 then Martin could absolutely be the second best player on a championship team. Who is second fiddle on the Bulls? Deng? Its all about 1-8, not 1-3
The Miami Heat say hello. I think Martin is ideally your second or third best player on offense and third best player overall.
I pointed out FGA because you said he only gets his points off dishonorable FTs as opposed to clutch FGs, sorry you couldn't put 2 and 2 together. And wow, everyone knows missed FGs don't count on fouls. KM has a very low career FG%, Kobe has never broken 50% FG%. Do you mean to tell me that these two are bad shooters? You foul players on their easy shots so they have to earn it at the line. That means their FG% will consist of mostly hard or contested shots. This is like basketball 101 (no actually it requires some critical thinking to get to this result but it is still common knowledge). This is also why only amateur statisticians ever look at FG%.
Have you watched the Bulls? They've looked very unimpressive in the playoffs. Rose is trying to do it all by himself and it's just not working. I don't see them as a serious threat to knock off either the Celtics or Heat.. and that's only if they can get past the Hawks. With Boozer now locked in long-term, they may be in trouble. The problem with your thinking is you believe I devalue 3-8 just because I place a higher value on 1-2. The two are not mutually exclusive. However, you can get away with an average 3-8 if your 1-2 are great players. If Martin's your second best player, you better have a great 3-8 and one hell of a #1. ash-- I enjoyed our back and forth, but there's no need for me to continue. It's obvious you lost -- better luck next time.
I got into it briefly a few pages back I believe, but the cliff notes of it was I don't think we'll be able to land a lead dog with the assets we currently have. Without trading Martin, we're left with role players on inexpensive contracts and non-lottery first rounders. I just don't see that being enough to entice an Orlando, for example, to part with Dwight Howard.
I think Martin’s FG% in clutch time would go up quite a bit if he were the second option and not the first. Rudy Gay’s stats are based on him being second option to Randolph. I actually think Martin is an excellent second option if we could bring in a superstar. I’m only in favor of trading Martin for a rebuild because I don’t see bringing in a superstar as feasible at all.
What are you talking about? Are you saying if you get fouled and make both FT you would actually have 2 FGAs and FGM? Where the hell did you get this assumption? A look at KM's boxscore stats show him having only 8 FGA but 11FT attempts in game 12: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/martike02/gamelog/2011/ Also getting fouled doesn't improve your FG%, it lowers it. The reason is because you get fouled on sure-fire attempts like transition layups, meaning all the "gimme" shots which normally boost your FG% are taken away. As such, KM has a deceptively low FG% because he gets fouled so much. If you look at TS% (which is the real FG% of players), KM is one of the best scorers in the league, and yes a smart man would put the ball in his hands in a close game instead of Rudy freaking Gay. Honestly, you shouldn't brag about being able "watch the game" and how the rest of us just look at b-ball reference if you can't even understand basic stuff like this. FYI most of us refer to stats because that is what is based in reality. All your arguments always center on you having watched the game, but thing is you can't come up with logical arguments aside from posting up Rudy Gay's highlight videos because all you do is watch the game. Unless you have the eyes of a hawk and the memory of a computer, I have a hard time believing in anything you say if you all you do is watch the game and then talk out of your ass.
What he is saying that getting fouled does not negitively effect your f/g%. It only counts as a f/g attempt if you make it... which would help your f/g% not hurt it. The free throws are not counted against any f/g attempts. And a lot of players have perfected throwing their bodies into the defenders in order to get a foul call while throwing up a shot that never had a chance of going in with out devine intervention. And if KMart had 11 free throws you could logically assume that he missed 5 shots while getting fouled (not counting twords his f/g attempts or lowering his f/g%) for 10 free throws, and made 1 shot while being fouled (improving his f/g% because it counts as a made f/g attempt) for the and one free throw attempt.
Thank you, crash. I thought it was obvious, but leave it to roslolian to continue the fight. I wasn't bragging about watching them; my point was if you ever watched either player, you wouldn't have to look at stats to know the answer. I use stats plenty, but I also recognize their weakness at times. However, Kevin Martin vs. Rudy Gay in the clutch is not a debate; Gay wins hands down. I knew that without having to look up stats. When ashishduh took to his 82games bookmark to prove me wrong, he was really digging his own grave. Kevin Martin shot 44% from the field on the year. Kevin Martin shot 38% in crunch time. Rudy Gay shot 47% from the field on the year. Rudy Gay shot 47% from the field in crunch time. So.. you'd really put the ball in Martin's hands over Gays when the game is on the line? Do you guys even watch the games or do you just see a bunch of matrix-like numbers in lieu of players? You don't have to convince me to do that deal.
I already said you mostly get fouled on sure attempts to the basket. It doesn't directly affect your fg, but over the course of the season you would have lower fgs as more and more of your "guaranteed" fgs get turned into freethrow attempts. Not only that the smaller sample size means your missed shots tend to have a larger effect onyour fgs. As a layman's explanation, let's say KM had 10 field goals for the entire season. However, KM is such a notorious flopper he got fouled on all but 3 of his fgs. On his 16 trips on the basket, KM went 16 for 16. On his 3 attempts, he missed 1, which would mean his FG% is 33%. In this case, KM missed just 1 shot, but his shot attempts were so low his %s looked like he shot like crap the entire game. This is why informed people use TS% to compare FG%. Also as an aside, let me say it bugs the hell out of me when people create a difference between watching the game and looking at stats. You know what you would have if you watched the game and remembered every detail of what happened? The boxscore stats! These stats aren't made up, these are records of what actually happened because people realized they can't keep track of all the information if they just sit on their asses and only watched the game. Stats show an incomplete picture, true, but their shouldn't be any huge disconnect between the numbers and the game you watched on tv if all you're talking about is scoring prowess.
I've wanted to get rid of Kevin Martin in a long time. He's a good player on a bad team type. Can't make a shot himself, which means he can't make things easier for his teammates, and he can't defend. I'd take an 07 T-Mac over Kevin Martin.
