You think Grant Hill would be able to play as he does today if he didn't basically spend five years sitting out? Obviously it's an extremity, but if Kevin Martin can stay healthy, ( and I think he can), then it's something to observe that Martin's minutes aren't as heavy as other players of the same age.
I mean, you're free to believe he can remain as healthy as he did this year. I think you're lying to yourself a bit when you say "I don't see any reason he can't stay healthy.." -- well, the reason would be his history of NOT staying healthy. I don't necessarily believe he will suffer a major injury next year, but I think it's entirely possible given his history of injuries. I realize (or believe) that another big injury and his trade value he's built up will plummet. We're so quick to forget that we traded Carl Landy (a middle-of-the-road PF) for him; now people are demanding a superstar in return for him. I just don't see it happening. A lot of people like to talk about how young he is and how we shouldn't trade him because he's still productive -- well, yeah.. of course he's still productive, or we wouldn't be "selling high" on him. That's the whole point. Nobody is going to pay a premium for him if he breaks his wrist again and plays 50 games next year. Maybe I'm just being overly cautious because we held on to our last two stars for too long. Either way, I think it just boils down to a split in Rockets fans thinking, evidenced by my thread vs. jopatmc's thread. He feels we're close, I feel we're far apart. The most common thing thrown around here is we're a SF and C away from contending.. but then nobody takes that further to think about who we'd have to give up for those upgrades and if those trades are even possible. Want Nene? Ok, Denver probably wants Kevin Martin. Well crap -- there goes the plan to add a C to a Kevin Martin-led core. Some people just expect us to be able to flip our bad contracts (Miller) and/or players (Thabeet) for a clear upgrade; I just don't see it happening. The "collect assets" plan isn't some new thing that Morey had a dream about one night -- several teams do this, just without advertising it as much as Daryl has. Remember when Daryl said we had the best assets in the league and then New Jersey stole our superstar in five minutes? Draft picks, specifically high draft picks, will always make up the most attractive trade packages to teams unloading their best players. If you really took a hard look at our assets, you'd see that they are just not very good. They are a collection of role players and mid to late 1st round draft picks. I usually leave Lowry off this list because I'd like to keep him (cheap contract + production); but Lowry has also only been performing at this level for one season. I don't think New Orleans is going to be banging down our door to trade us CP3 because Lowry had one good year shooting the ball from downtown. That isn't to say I think Lowry will revert to his old shooting habits, but I think teams are going to be skeptical of his new shooting touch until he does it in multiple years.
JR smith is possibly good as gone this off season. pretty sure a cocky b*stard like him would want a starting gig by now, and can you really blame him? pretty the nuggets might want to consider kevin martin if jr smith is gone this off-season or in the future.
But why would we want JR Smith for Martin? I would want multiple high draft picks for Martin, from a team like, say, Minnesota or Detroit.
There's no such thing as a developmental coach. No coach who wants to keep his job will play those two busts. And Morey has even said that Martin's injuries were freak injuries. You people act like he's had chronic back spasms or ankle issues his entire career.
That is excatly what I am saying, they dont realize that Martin will be Martin regardless of who is coaching, but they also don't seem to understand that Martin will play his best basketball with someone to play off of like a good SF or Center. Something that he did not have last year yet was still successful. No spin just reality, you act like he has chronic injuries. The guy broke his wrist, strained his groin and had ankle problems. The groin and ankle are common in the league, while not that many players actually break their wrist. And while he did sit out for long periods of time, his injuries were not the kind that would hinder his ability like Mcgrady's were. His argument was to Trade Martin for future talent via draft picks. I believe that by the time we groom said picks the league will already be written in stone. All of the superstars would have joined forces and it will only be about 4 or 5 contending teams in the League. Also Martins success this year was not the way the team designed it because he was forced to be the Go-to Guy, Maybe if Yao would of played more than 5 games your statement would of been true. Instead he played with half of a SF, an aging PF, and a 6'6 Center. Now i do believe a top pick would be great for this organization, but i would not put all of my eggs in a draft class basket. I would trade the best player on my team for a chance to draft a player to have a chance to turn into a superstar to have a chance to bring in other star players to have a chance to make a run at a title. Not good business
RealRocFan47-- I never said he has chronic injuries, but there's no denying how much he has been hurt. You see a string of bad luck, I see a weak body who is susceptible to injury. And if you remember McGrady's injuries, then you would know he had back issues in his early years, then he had a shoulder problem, and finally a knee injury that finally made him just another role player. McGrady's injuries, outside of random back spasms, were not chronic either. And I don't mean to compare McGrady to Martin, just responding to the comparison you brought up. You have a real doomsday outlook on the league. Superstars are joining forces.. the Heattles signed together, the Boston/New York/LA stars wanted to play together, and the Thunder drafted theirs. I don't see any superstar wanting to play with Kevin Martin.. do you? Your argument is to keep Martin and hope we can trade for a first option to pair him with. My problem with this is two-fold: 1) Nobody wants to play with Kevin Martin 2) We don't have the assets to acquire a superstar without also trading Martin. Wake up, drink some coffee, look over our assets and I'm confident you'll come to the same conclusion. If you're the Magic, do you really want Luis Scola, Patrick Patterson and Courtney Lee for Dwight Howard? I know I would think the Magic could get a lot more in return.. I'd prefer a Utah-esque package of a high draft pick with potential (Favors) + other high draft picks. In the end, I've taken a hard look at the approach of continuing to build around Martin by adding another superstar. I've looked over the superstars that might be available and what the Rockets could possibly offer. I've concluded that our offers just don't stack up to what other teams can offer. For example, if the Lakers want Dwight Howard, Andrew Bynum is a better trade piece than Kevin Martin, Lowry and any other Rocket you want to throw in there. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that the smartest approach would be to trade Kevin Martin and rebuild through the draft -- I don't see any way Morey can trade for a superstar using the assets we currently have. If you think the Rockets will be able to bring in a #1 option to pair Martin with, I'd love to hear who you think will be available, what we can offer for him, and why our offer will trump other team's offers. If you can show me a realistic, possible trade offer that would make us a contender, I'd be more than happy to discuss the "build with Martin approach." Unfortunately, I don't think it exist.
Hey guys you can't build around 2nd tier players like Zach Randolph, let's trade him for draft picks. You think superstars like Tony Allen are going to want to play with him? Wake up please.
I agree with some of your statements but not all. Nobody knows who wants to play with who. I'm sure everyone that has played against Martin knows what he is capable of doing and respects it. So you cant just say "nobody wants to play with K.Mart" off of your personal speculation. I bet you Dwight would have rather had K.Mart at the SG position than J.Rich during the Atl series. He might not say it. But lets just be real. Now, my basis on keeping Martin depends on what we are able to do in the Free agency. If we are able to lure a decent Center to sign with us this off-season, we would be in a much better position to make a trade than we are currently in now. For instance, say we were able acquire S.Dalembert He may not be a top Center but he is a contributor. He averaged 8 pts and 8 rbs in like 24 mins. Now we have more flexibility to make a trade. If we were after Dwight, we would be able to offer a replacement C, A proven PF, A Prospect PF, A SG who can start or be effective off the bench. We can also offer Chase, Goran, Thabeet, Jordan, or Williams as fillers. The Lakers can offer Bynum and who? Odom. Their fillers would be who Brown, Blake, Ratliff, Character? our fillers are just as good as pretty much any team that would make offers for him. If you are trading for Howard or any Superstar you are going to have to offer a line-up. They are not going to Trade Dwight for just 1 or 2 players. Would Orlando be any better if their line up looked like Nelson/Arenas Richardson/S.Brown/Reddick Odom/Hedo/Richardson Bass/Odom/Clark Bynum/Anderson/Orton This team looks Mediocre! They will make the Playoffs because they are in the Eastern Conference, not that hard to do, This would not be a smart trade to make if you are Orlando, Bynum is one Injury away from being Greg Oden. But, We are so flexible we can throw in Lowry and his great contract We can leave them with a line up something like this. Lowry/Nelson Richardson/Lee/Reddick Hedo/Williams/Buddinger* Scola/Bass/Patterson*/Clark Dalembert/Orton/Anderson/Thabeet* Not to mention we can throw in Cash and our picks would be better than the Lakers. That would leave us with a Team ready to battle in any 7 game series Dragic/Arenas Martin/Q.Richardson/Williams* Buddinger*/Williams*/Q.Richardson/ Void Hayes/Hill/Cousins/Patterson* Howard/Yao?/Thabeet*/Miller Of Course, All of Above will not be possible unless we Sign a Decent C. The better the Center the better our Chances(Gasol,Nene,Chandler,Nzar,Jordan), but we do have a Chance. I agree getting Howard is a Long Shot, Wouldn't hold my breath for it. But being realistic you have to agree that a Center would change the outlook on everything. When I watch other games I see so many plays that we never get to make during our games. Because we dont have that Presence in the paint Someone that can go over the backs of people, Make people think twice before they enter the paint. Someone that can Catch and Dunk In the Western Conference it will be too difficult to try to Rebuild. We are already in the Best division in the NBA, and we are still a +.500 team. That says alot about our Team. We use the Free agency and make trades to make us better. I would'nt consider totally rebuilding for at least another two years. Give these guys a Chance. If you think about it, we are ready rebuilding. Whos starting on our teams that was Three season ago? Really who still here besides Chuck, Scola, and Yao. Now we just need to continue building
Sure a player may not mind playing with Martin, but what LTF is saying that no player will FORCE A TRADE to play with Martin. Martin has never been to ASG and been in 1 playoffs. Preferring a player does not equal making it a point to play with a player. At the moment, the Rockets have $46 million guaranteed next year before accepting Dragic's team option as well as Hayes & Yao's new contracts (because you just know they will resign Yao to something). Then add in ~$5 million for 2 1st round picks. That is already > $56 million. The entire league is going crazy because the owners want a hard cap (probably won't happen) or at least a lower cap than the expected $58 million. I will almost guarantee you there will not be a MLE in the next CBA as well. So how do the Rocekts even afford to sign even a Dalembert? Since you bring it up. If the Magic trade Howard, they are rebuilding. Because they know there is no way after giving him up they can compete with Miami or Chicago over the next 4-5 year. What is their biggest obstacle to rebuilding their team? Gilbert Arenas: $17,730,694/$19,269,307/$20,807,921/$22,346,535 Hidayet Turkoglu: $10,215,850/$11,015,850/$11,815,850/$12,000,000 Jameer Nelson:$7,800,000/$7,800,000/$7,800,000 J.J. Redick:$7,250,000/$6,750,000/$6,190,000 They will force that team to take at least one of these contracts, which would make it difficult for the Rockets to truly build around Howard/Martin (just like what Juwan Howard's contract did with the T-mac/Yao core). A first time starter at PG. NO Guards/wings who can play decent defense. PF is "deep" but it is still tough to say what Hill or Patterson will become no matter what flashes they had last year, and even adding Hayes they are still still will have trouble against say Memphis or OKC. Plus has Martin really proven to be a closer to you? To me he hasn't. Oh wait, that is why we have Arenas... You want this presence, yet most people expect Nene, Chandler, & Gasol to resign with their current team; Nzar cannot be a starter; Jordan is very young and no one if can play well consistently yet; players like Dalembert cannot play like that for 7 games in a series against say.... Memphis or OKC. Really? Portland Trail Blazers - Possible contender (3-5 year title window) Minnesota Timberwolves - Lottery fodder Oklahoma City Thunder - Strong contender (5-7 year title window) Denver Nuggets - Borderline playoff team (2 year playoff window) Utah Jazz - Rebuilding team/Lottery fodder Dallas Mavericks - Current contender (2 year title window) Houston Rockets - On-the-cusp playoff team (2-3 year playoff window) Memphis Grizzlies - Strong contender (3-5 year conference window) New Orleans Hornets - Possible contender (1 year if Paul leaves, 3-5 year window if he leaves. San Antonio Spurs - Possible contender (optimistic 1 year title window) Golden State Warriors - On-the-cusp playoff team (2-3 year playoff window) Los Angeles Clippers - Possible contender (5-7 year playoff/conference window) Los Angeles Lakers - Current contender (2 year title window) Phoenix Suns - On-the-cusp playoff team (2 year window) Sacramento Kings - Rebuilding team/Lottery fodder Most of the strong teams in the WC will be fading in 2-3 years. In 3 years, the strongest team in the WC will likely be OKC, Memphis, & Portland. NO will be strong if they keep Paul, but will also fade if he bolts to NYK. Utah, LAC, and Sac could be contenders if their stars develop, but that is questionable right now. If anything, this is the perfect time for the Rockets to start rebuilding. We are actually already nearly too LATE!! If Rockets can get a young star by 2012, their they could time their window correctly. Waiting too long to start (2-3 years) and whatever window the Rockets are gunning for will likely be the same window as the Suns, LAL, Spurs, Mavs, Denver, and any of the aforementioned teams that stick around.
The Grizzlies aren't going anywhere. Wake me up when they blow their overpaid bloated roster up like Golden State did after they knocked off the Mavs. Talk about Fool's gold, an eighth seed who has proven to be mediocre over an 82 game season playing over their heads in one round of the playoffs.
Our debate is turning into a novel, but I think we're at least getting somewhere. I'll try to touch on things you mentioned, starting with the above: I think we've done a half-ass job of rebuilding. Instead of realizing that Yao was done, we traded for Martin with the hope that we could make one last push with a Yao-Martin led team. That's not rebuilding, that's retooling. A team that's rebuilding wouldn't have given Scola the big contract he received this summer. The Rockets were clinging to the hope they could squeeze one last run out of Yao instead of truly rebuilding. Now, finally, I believe they are finally understanding it's time to rebuild. I think the FO wanted Adelman to play some of the younger guys more, but that's speculation by me and open to interpretation. re: Nobody knows who wants to play with who While my comments did include some speculation, there is also some basis behind them. Chris Bosh and Amare Stoudamire both turned us down this summer. The Rockets pitched "play with Yao" to them, not "play with Martin." Carmelo Anthony turned us down during the season. I just don't think you can really say with any kind of confidence that a superstar will want to play with Kevin Martin -- three such stars had their choice of teams and none of them listed Houston as even finishing 2nd, 3rd, or 4th that I'm aware of. Would Dwight prefer Kevin Martin to J-Rich? Of course! But that doesn't mean he'd come to Houston for the chance to play with Martin! He'd probably prefer to play with a lot of SGs instead of J-Rich.. but that in no way means he'd ever go to a team because of that upgraded SG. --- Damnit, rpr52121! You beat me to most of the points. I'll add a few to the Dwight scenario: First, to be clear rpr, Juwan Howard didn't have a bad contract when he was with the Rockets. I believe it was MLE only.. the big contract was his previous contract. Second, RealRoc, there is no way that Orlando would do your Houston deal. Outside of Lowry (when they are already paying Jameer), there is nothing for them to build around. How did you type out that Magic lineup without snickering? That looks like the definition of mediocre, if not worse! You seem to have based your whole idea of trading for a superstar on signing a center. It seems you're aware that Dalembert is the only realistic option on the market. What you may not be aware of is we are not alone in our pursuit for a big man -- the Knicks will also be going after Dalembert hard. It's very possible that we'll miss out on signing Dalembert, especially when other teams with a brighter future can offer comparable salaries. You said you wouldn't consider rebuilding for another two years -- Luis Scola will be a 33 year old PF (who hopefully won't need microfracture by then) that is making close to $10M. In other words, you're not going to get much for him -- but I think you'd agree that we should move Scola for value now if we could. Kevin Martin's contract expires in two years, so if we're still not a contender by then (unlikely for reasons I laid out in previous post), he's going to walk and we'll get nothing. We could trade him as an expiring in his contract year, but then you're dealing with trading him at a discount. Ron Artest was traded in his final contract year for an expiring and two late 1st round picks. That's just not great value -- and that's assuming that Martin can stay healthy for the next two years. I'd rather get as much for Martin as I can now and jump start the rebuilding process rather than wasting another two years trying to win with a squad that is just not talented enough. We don't even know who the new coach will be and how much our offense will suffer because of it. He's a boxscore surfer who doesn't watch games, pay no attention. Randolph was always an extremely talented scorer and rebounder, but he never trusted his teammates or made the right pass/play until these last few years in Memphis (similar to Olajuwon -- though obviously, not saying the two should be noted in the same sentence). Martin is nothing like Randolph -- why one would try to make that comparison, I have no idea.
Whilst I can definately see the value of trading Martin out whilst he's still worth something (seriously though, since when was a top 10 ppg scorer a third/fourth offensive option?) for me it'd actually come down more to what we were trading him FOR as to whether there'd be a point trading him. "Selling high" only works if the teams paying consider "high" to be of value to us, rather than screwing us over instead. My personal preference would be to keep Martin, but that's based entirely on the fact I like his game, I like his output and I like how much he gets to the line. If we got good value for him, and I mean real good value not "potential decent players" then I'd have no problem with him going.
Well he is the only one we got left to sell. Scola pretty much shot down his trade value voluntarily when he heardthe rumors. I think Scola should be moved just for the information he gave us as reason he might not be good in the future. We might as well sell him while he still has some value.
Yes, Scola's leaping ability is now SHOT. He might as well retire in my opinion, he's more useless than Yao.
I would be shocked if we traded Martin. I agree that Martin along with Lowry are our most valuable trade pieces, but there is no way Morey will trade them for an arbitrary pick. No doubt, sure fire upgrades with a name attached should and hopefully will be the only things considered for either players. I don't have a problem if Morey believes on draft night that a certain guy is worth it to move Martin to trade up, but this or in a move for a superstar is the only way KM will not be in Houston to finish out his contract. His offensive game is obviously far too under appreciated by some people on this board. And for all the pro tankers, while I completely disagree with the notion that rebuilding is the way we are going, as evidenced by his time on the kings Kevin Martin can exist on a crappy "rebuilding" team.
His sarcasm doesn't translate well. Then again, neither do the points he tries to make. DiamondDobb-- I don't think PPG is a good indicator of whether or not someone's a first/second/third option. Martin is a good scorer and was our first option, but that doesn't mean he could be a great #2 option on a contender. I like to compare Martin in the #2 role to championship contenders #2 guys -- and I don't think Martin belongs in the same discussion as them (Wade/KG/Gasol/Westbrook). That's why I say he's more of a third option type of guy, in my eyes. If you paired him with an elite big man (Dwight Howard, for example), you STILL need someone that's going to take and make the last second shots. jordnnn-- you kind of contradicted yourself, no? You said surefire upgrades with names attached should be the only thing he's traded for, then in the next sentence say you'd be cool with Morey using Martin to move up in the draft to get someone he wants (which is what I'm suggesting). As far as being able to suck while keeping Martin, look at the players surrounding Martin on that SAC team vs. here..
