1) I really can't speak for Christianity. Muhammad PBUH never waged war on anyone who did not wage war on his people. I know this because I used to have the same doubts you have. Ultimately, every action was related to injustice done to innocent people or someone else declaring war. All were proportionate. I'd be happy to explain to you if you have any specific doubts. It was not religious, no matter how much Saudi Arabia would like to make you believe that. They did not fight idolaters because they were idolaters. They fought idoletors because of rape, breach of truce, under attack, forced starvation, etc, many reasons. Again, please show me an example if you've misunderstood a quote from the Quran or something. 2) The point is that a lot has been spilled, but that does not come anywhere close to "most deaths" or "causes most divisions" etc. The claim you make (I think) is that the world would be far far more peaceful if not for religious wars. That is not true in my opinion. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this well. It is a lot, as even a few thousand is a lot in my opinion... but it is nowhere near the huge proportion you are (I think) assigning to it. 3) I think you missed me point again here. I know that the Arabs divided afterwards, I said that. Arabs were divided before it. Arabs have been divided ever since. But for the 30-50 years of Islam under the Prophet PBUH, the Arabs were united, regardless of religion. It united a group of people who disliked each other since birth and continue to dislike each other. Tribal warfare was so common before Islam and became common again, often wiping out entire tribes in exchange for simple issues. Burying new born girls. Open and willing suicide to save honor. Prostitution of their own daughters. Child molestation. Insane domestic abuse. Child abuse. 100's of wives, and no rights for those wives, or the children. Slavery. Orphan buying/selling/stealing. Most of that dissapeared. A bit of that can still be seen today. This was an example of how religion brought peace. What you referred to in your post is the Prophet's grandchild. It fits into my example. Those kinds of things came back after his death. The violence you're referring to is the fight over the Caliphate - a political leader role in a large empire. Just like Obama and McCain ran to be the President and they engaged in dirty tactics to do so. What they do to get where they get has no bearing on the morality of America or its constitution. In the same way, just because people fought over becoming the leader of the empire, that doesn't make it a fight in the name of Islam. Schism (I assume you're referring to shiism) was born before the death of Hussayn btw. It doesn't exist as a result of Hussayn's death. It is a significant event in the formative years of Shiism though.
Unfashionably late to the debate again I hope not to bring up regurgitated points. Just that I've impression-ably listened to all the truths and enlightenment talks out there throughout life. I've debunked myths, I've had my BS sensors installed for 2 decades. Maybe its a science+atheism thing - what I've learned is science tells you that in a very neat way, you are completely irrelevant. To everything. Ever. That when it comes down to it, everyone and everything is the accidental b*stard illegitimate child of existence. You were made in/you'll be made out. And will continue to be forever. So its like, what the heck do you do with that? No point or purpose toward a greater design if there even is one. At the same time we're "built" to be resilient and maintain, I think. So whats to look forward to?
Is that all life is to you? Looking forward to the afterlife? That seems so sad... It sounds like you'd feel so lost and without purpose without the idea that something is going to take care of you after you die. I can see why so many folks have trouble believeing any differently. This is how I see it...how was life like before you were conceived? Do you remember feeling so lost and sad because you didn't have a consciousness, or some eternal soul walking around playing modern warfare 2 in heaven? Of course not...That's how I imagine death is going to be...I find it hard to believe anything else. That's just me. You won't be sad, you won't be happy, you just won't be. Is it all that bad? Was it all that bad before? Nope.
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I disagree that we're completely irrelevant to everything ever. People exist, and the feeling, emotions and experiences they have are real. My existence and how I live my life affect those things for other people, so in that sense I'm very relevant. And that's where I put my focus - how do I affect the feelings, emotions and experiences of the people around me? The goal of having a positive effect is something that keeps me motivated to live life, and gives me contentment and happiness when I succeed. When I die, my existence will have left a permanent imprint on the universe. And even though it is almost infinitesimally small relative to the universe as a whole, it is real and important to those around me. Given all that, I think this happy accident of nature is awesome, and I'm happy to enjoy the ride of life with its successes and failures, its emotional roller coasters, and its relative irrelevance. And when it's done, it's done.
Agree. I forgot to add that I'm an atheist who has the occasional problem with Atheism. I'm fine on the no afterlife stuff. Right, I didnt have a problem with the before-life, so why have one with an after-life. The thread title is "Why do Atheists get so much grief?" For me its more "Why does Atheism get so much grief? (Here's Why)" Its about what to do in the present and today. And by tomorrow I meant in our TODAY, what are we supposed to be building "toward"? Do we just squeeze out a bunch of people from our reproductivity and let them run amok? What exactly IS "progress" then, as a whole, really? Who has a say in what that is? Its not a bunch of clergymen, its organizations of intelligent humans. Are we/they trying to maintain, deconstruct, build, or change? And is it always for the better? Religion attempts to wraps all that up in one big simple package, for all its wrongs. In Atheism, aka The Big "Just Is", its like ooookay atheists you got lied to about religion. You got judged too harshly, your parents were wrong alright already. So do you want drugs, jetpacks? Bisexualities, robotic body parts, "Singularities"? Its pretty wide open what you can get into. Then its "Let Nature Takes Its Course" .... Saving the freaking animals and earth and, whatever... There is no general consensus for the "goal" of humanity present OR future. Who do you "trust" with your livelihood then, dudes in labratories? There seems to be just as much intolerance and tolerance for people who dont use religion as a guide, in my opinion. Non-religious people can be just as "preachy". All I know is in my existing mortal present, everything annoys the living F**K outta me equally
http://blogs.chron.com/texaspolitics/archives/2011/04/gov_perry_pray.html Gov. Rick Perry has issued a proclamation asking Texans to pray for rain -- specifically on Friday through Sunday. Now, it's a pretty solid kick in mah theological junk to have the head of my state ask that I, an atheist, engage in a religious practice. You may think it is a bunch of overblown bellyaching (and I can totally see why someone would say that, in the big picture, it is small beans), but honestly, this stuff adds up over time. You start to feel unwanted, unaccepted, unvalued and in the worst cases, less than a citizen. Imagine if Texas' pork industry was suffering, and Perry urged everybody everywhere to eat moar pork. Would kinda suck to be Jewish. It's kind of insulting, despite his "meaning well".
"necromancy" is not the preferred term for rising from the dead. Certainly this time of year. At least not amongst more spiritual people. I'll pray for you, Donny. May you find peace in this time of trouble. Peace and chocolate easter eggs.
Pray that I get some peeps instead, cadbury eggs are gross. :grin: *edit: i'm not losing a ton of sleep over this or anything, just reminded me of this thread in the way that some people take their surroundings for granted, and this might help somebody relate to a differing perspective.
It is stupid that he not only thinks prayer will solve a drought, but that all faiths/traditions believe in prayer. Rick Perry being an idiot is nothing new, however, so I don't really care. I'm sure there's a never-ending stream of this sort of stuff you could glean from /r/atheism. Atheists like us are pretty marginalized in society and looked down upon quite often, but that's really part of living in the good ol' United States. The American Atheists society challenged all atheists to put "I am an American Atheist" in their Facebook status a few months ago, and I chickened out. I don't know why, exactly, but perhaps it's a fear of impending rancor from the religious rabble (e.g., my rural Texan family).
nice card. well played. Come on now... you gonna let goodhair get you down, being who you know he is? Sure, he was hoping and maybe praying for rain before, but NOW if it rains (in the most likely month, though it's no guarantee), this idear is gonna pay political DIVIDENDS! You know goodhair, and yet still you will take this personally on a "spiritual" level? A million acres ablaze in april is a bit more dire than pork bellies being down, mortimer. If you don't subscribe to his methods, whether you question them or not, you could still make a difference in another way if not being part of a collective effort is making you feel less than a person. Buck up, lad, he din't mean nothin' by it.... not to diminish your suffering.
Yes, because Christians, Muslims, and Jews are never made to feel targeted by broader society or political representatives.
Do it for Texas, Donny. Ask not what Texas can do for you, ask what your prayers can do for Texas. Maybe you could do a rain dance instead.
Actually I've heard politicians frequently push regional products. On the radio today I heard the mayor of St. Paul urging people to come and eat pizza at St. Paul's great pizzerias. Of course as someone lactose intolerant I found it kind of insulting. That said I find it slightly silly to pray for rain but not out of line for a politician. Politicians frequently site prayer at times of tragedy and hardship, such as pray for the victims of the Japan Earthquake, pray for Gabby Giffords, pray for the safety of the troops and etc... I can see how that is bothersome for an atheist but I don't see statement like those as being a threat to secular government or secular society.
Prayer is free but actually helping people costs money. Rick Perry encourages us to pray for people who need help. Rick Perry is a piece of **** who would greatly benefit the state by dying.
Ditto. If you want to play the victim card in America, its pretty easy to find reasons to suggest that you're being discriminated against. The Tea Party decries being depicted as racist and targeted in the media as a bunch of redneck idiots. Women who've had abortions get offended when the other side calls them baby killers. The Latino community feels targeted by legislation against illegal immigrants. Christians feel targeted by anti-Christian sentiment. The Jewish community feels targeted by media outlets and Antisemitic sentiments, African Americans complain of discrimination, Muslims complain about Islamophobia, etc. The fact is that probably all of the above are within their right to have that feeling, and that there's a lot of legitimacy to what all of them are saying. And although you might have found Gov. Perry's statement alienating, there's much more political rhetoric aimed at other groups that make them feel alienated.
I can't believe I have to say this, but two wrongs don't make a right. (did I really just have to dust off that old chestnut?) On second glance, I saw Perry's proclamation was asking people of "all faiths and traditions"... so basically, he was speaking only to the religious (unless you want to consider secularism a faith/tradition, which some may), so this specific example isn't all that great. But, like someone already said, this refrain is very commonly addressed to the citizenry at large, with no regard for the secular community. But, either way, it's still bothersome to have a head of state implore the religious to be more... religousy... to help fix this problem... maybe he ought to ask some of those godless scientist types to figure out a way to seed the clouds instead? Just thinking out loud here.
This isn't a victimization pissing contest. And as an aside, I wholly disagree with your statement. In my opinion, atheists/agnostics have their rights and sensibilities trampled on by the government far more than any other group on matters of religion. They just lack a real impetus to speak up, and also a cohesive voice. We live in a society dominated by deists... so I don't expect deists to realize the kind of things that go on which crap all over the secular, because to them, it is the norm. It is like the wallpaper of the culture, and you only notice it once it isn't there anymore. Fish don't know he's wet, or what it's like to not have gills, etc.
This is an illustration of the value of Religion. This State looks like a burned out August landscape, like when you are begging for a hurricane and it's only April. But there isn't anything anybody can do about it. In the light of total futility, doing something that feels proactive at least settles the human psyche some.
