Florida Pastor Terry Jones Burns Quran After Mock Trial (w/ video)

Fixed that for you.

 

Fixed that for you.

 

So here's a question for adeel, mathloom, etc.

RE: World Trade Center Mosque

If someone said they were going to kill Muslims/Arabs if you built the WTC mosque, and you went ahead and built it, and that person committed those murders to spite you, would you be partially to blame for causing the murders?

*note: "inciting" the murders is not an option for blame here, incitement (that actually indicates blame) means that you gave someone legitimate reason to do what they did. all that is being done here is someone exercising bad taste, which is not against the law. and if you want to whether it is moral, then that is fine, but it doesn't have any place in this discussion in terms of right vs wrong.

 

In that hypothetical situation, if someone did put the lives of innocents hostage based on the construction of a Mosque, then yes, I would partially blame the idiots that went on to build the Mosque despite the warnings from the deranged public.

That was the main reason many Muslims were against the construction of the Mosque, no one was arguing the legality of it, they were arguing the potential incitement of the public.

Funny thing is, the same people that were against the WTC Mosque are pro Quran Burning... lol. hpyocrisy revealed.


And just to reiterate, the actions of Jo Mama, and SunsRocketsFans are by far the most pathetic ever seen on this board. And those that support them such as AroundTheWorld have no morals. They have taken the poo flinging to another level that I for one can say is unethical and very un-American. It's people like you that took part in Abu Ghraib, and the other heinous war crimes that took place in the name of America. I hope you do not pass these values to your children.

 

If someone went on National TV and said they were going to kill muslims/Arabs if the WTC Mosque was built they would be thrown in jail because that is a criminal offense.

 

Wow, this probably has to be the worst most offensive thread ever on clutchfans.

 

Is this thread some sort of bizarro experiment studying how moderate Muslims become radicalized based on Western misunderstanding and denigration of Islam?

There is no reason to be offensive in defending someone's right to be offensive.

 

I'm not sure which "side" has been more offensive here, but it's definitely stupid and definitely not worthy of further posts.

 

None?

 

I may not agree with you (and neither does the law, thankfully), but I'll give you credit for being consistent in your beliefs across the spectrum.

There were a lot of reasons Muslims argued against the site, none of them legal I'm sure, but not all of them had to do with curtailing violence/bowing to threats.

It isn't hypocritical unless they were trying to get the mosque from being built by law (while at the same time using law to allow for koran burnings). Otherwise, you're free to express your opinion about whether you think something is a good idea vs a bad idea without being a hypocrite as long as you support their right to actually carry out those ideas.

 

once again, you are 100% totally wrong.

i fully supported the right to build the mosque/community center near the WTC. i believe in private property rights and freedom of religion so it was a no-brainer for me. feel free to look through this thread and see where i stand on that issue.
http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=192693

trying to lay "part of the blame" for murder of innocent people on someone on the other side of the world is pretty pathetic.

those who try to lay "part of the blame" on a book burner on the other side of the world and say he is just as "immoral" as murders have no morals.

i find your attitude unethical and very un-american.

i have been speaking out against abu ghraib and our governments war crimes for years. i have called for justice (the death penalty) to be imposed on bush, cheney, rumsfeld, gonzales and yoo multiple times for war crimes such as lying our country into a war which has killed hundreds of thousands and authorizing torture. feel free to look though any of my posts on such issues.

the pathetic thing is that people like you equate some idiot burning one book with abu ghraib, war crimes and torture. we have people like you going around saying the murders are "as immoral" as the book burners. we have people like you saying burning an effigy of someone on their lawn is as bad as burning a koran on your private property. we have people like you saying burning a wtc statue at ground zero is as bad as burning a koran on your private property.

maybe you are brainwashed too?

 

why on earth are you asking me?

Murderers legally and morally responsible for murder.

Hate-causers morally responsible for hatred.

That aside, you seem to be defining incitement to your liking and to suit our argument. Are you getting that definition from somewhere specific?

 

im a very tolerant person who respects everyones right to practice their religion freely - i have put quite a bit of effort here in clutchfans defending muslims, but i am finding myself becoming radicalized by those who compare someone who burns one book to those who murder what is now over 20 people.

i dont like that we now have senators talking about making laws to ban stuff like this - it opens the door for even further erosion of our civil liberties - again, i have never had a problem with muslims whatsover, but they will make an enemy out of me when they succeed in curtailing my freedoms.

 

To offer you a different perspective/vantage point on a similar scenario, and to see if your values hold true through both, and if not, why they would be different, etc.

OK, but does doing something that causes somebody to hate you mean you are "partially responsible" for what they do due to their hatred of you?

Incitement, for purposes of this discussion, revolves around "instigation". (persuasion, threats, etc all belong to the family of "incitement" according to the definition) Lots of things can "instigate" something. That does not mean someone should be held legally responsible just because someone uses that action as "instigation" to do something. For example, if you burn an American flag and it "instigates" somebody to harm you, are you liable for that? Legally, heck no. Morally? Well that's up to you to decide personally, but thankfully it has no bearing on the rules that govern the state.

 

Who in this thread has said the pastor should be held legally responsible?

I think the majority of the people agree he was legally within his rights to do what he did. Though I personally think he was an idiot to do so, I'll defend that right any day of the week.

 

There have been a few people (near the beginning of the thread overtly, in the middle vaguely).

And I don't know about you, but when someone says he is "partially to blame", I take that to mean he should share some of the punishment or ramifications. Don't you?

Otherwise, why bother placing blame at all?

 

Yippie we are the one with no morals yet you are the one trying to justify a mob of murdering lowlifes and trying to put the blame one someone else.

Also how have we taken the poo flinging to another level? I was only trying to make a point. For your information I am very tolerant of everyone's individuals freedoms, religions and beliefs. As long as you are not hurting anyone else why do I care what you believe in? My drawing was just my stab at humor Yes I agree it might have been done in poor taste but that is just my type of humor. (huge South Park fan). That is a bit of a stretch to link me in supporting torture and war crimes because I added some color to a picture on some random internet board. A bit extreme there dont you think?

Your reaction is exactly why there is such a huge problem. Not saying you are going to go out and kill someone but your strong reaction is exactly the reason why those idiots went out and killed random innocent people. Yes my drawing was a bad stab at humor but it doesn't give anyone the right to just go murder some random innocent guy just because they think he's an American and I'm an American. Just ignore it and be on your way since I did not cause you any harm.

South park rips on Christianity/Catholics way more than Islam yet you don't see a angry mob of Christians threaten to cut off random people's heads and cause a riot.

 

Nah, that's now how I see it. I don't think he should share any of the punishment - because legally speaking he did nothing wrong. But I take blame to mean "because of you" .. as in causation. What the extremists did is unacceptable - there's no arguing that. Would it have happened had Jones not burned the Quran? Probably not. I say probably because by definition extremists have radical ideas and innocent deaths usually result... so they find a way. But if there was no Quran burning then the Imams would not have had something to get these extremists riled up over. And maybe we could have avoided 20 or so innocent deaths.

 

bad analogy.... In this case it would be more like you calling my mom names and my moms friend going out and picking a fight and beating the crap out of a random person walking by that has the same hair color as you. See how my mom's friend is a lunatic and should be held fully responsible for his/her actions? You had nothing to do with it.

Makes a lot of sense huh?

 

Would it have happened had Jones not burned the Quran?

In my opinion, probably so.

Why? Because they were obviously looking for a reason, any reason at all, no matter how illegitimate, to cause people harm.

Jones "caused" those murders the same way a sword "causes" somebody to get stabbed, the causation/motivation was already there a long time ago...