To add to that, Hamas have all the money and power in a blockaded territory. Imagine what a ****ty life you're living when the only people who can feed you are the terrorists in the box you live in.
Sounds like an argument for liberating the Palestinian people from Hamas since Hamas would rather buy missiles than feed their people.
Both options are difficult. And Israel can't do it alone. The Palestinians have some major house cleaning and changes they would need to make as well. The sad thing is they don't have a viable leadership option at the moment. The PA is corrupt, and Hamas is too extreme. I would think it would have to be baby steps, and the UN should probably send in troops to separate the two sides (which Israel would never agree to). Then both sides need to be held accountable. So far neither side has been great at keeping their agreements. The Palestinian side has on occasion, but when Israel doesn't follow through it never lasts long. Other times the Palestinians never even implement the changes they've agreed to. Because of the realities of the entrenched mindset and extremists on both sides it's very difficult for anything to be accomplished. Negotiators need to make it clear to Israel that by getting rid of the settlements and recognizing a Palestinian state it will actually be beneficial to them. The Palestinians need to realize that isolating and ostracizing anyone who advocates, uses, or supports terrorism will be in their best interest, while finding a workable leadership party (preferably more than one) to lead the Palestinians toward statehood. Both sides will benefit, but the mindset from both sides just isn't there right now.
Something I was thinking: Right now the international community is holding Israel back from driving out the Palestinians and trying to restrain Israel in retalliation of the terrorist attacks. If the Palestinians get their own sovergn state (which the should, IMO) what's to stop Israel from declaring War against them once the terrorist start attacking from the new Palestinian country? Right now the Palestinians kind of get an umbrella of safety because it looks like a genocide type scenario being within the Israeli borders and all. But draw some boundaries and lob rockets across them. Wouldn't it be open season at that point?
Nothing really, which is why initially the UN should have troops separating the sides, and the Palestinians need to have better leadership in place to help stop terrorists attacks from happening. In the recent past the Palestinians have stopped their attacks for periods as long as a year or more. So it can happen. Hopefully their own state and losing it would be part of the incentive to restrain terrorism. Right now they have little incentive to restrain terrorism and that's part of the problem that needs to be addressed. But once the Palestinians have their own sovereign nation, if they attack or allow their citizens to attack Israel they are subject to retaliation. There should be measures put into place so that Israel can't bait an attack for an excuse to launch an offensive and so that Palestinians extremists can't sabotage the process with their own terrorism. The problem right now is holding both sides accountable. One solution I've heard is hold the retaliation accountable in terms of aid. For instance Israel gets foreign aid for every peaceful week/month/period-of-time that the Palestinians go through peaceful existence and lose aid when that doesn't happen. The Palestinians receive aid and assistance when Israel goes through periods of peaceful existence. It doesn't matter who attacks either side, and whether the attacks happen as retaliation for something else. Something has to be done. The terrorists shouldn't be allowed to derail or dictate the peace process, nor should extremists from Israel.
For which? Their stance against Hamas? Their stance against the peace process? Their political orientation? Or their taking claim for the attacks? (It's also the PRC who are in the same camp: armed struggle only, don't recognize PA or Hamas).
I don't know if that's fair. Janet Mikhail (the mayor of Ramallah) ran as a independent, but she's definitely a leftist. A lot of the city government people in the West Bank are neither PA or Hamas, but tend to be secular and leftist. Mihail is a Roman Catholic, even. I don't think anyone would classify me as anything but secular and leftist either, to be fair. Most of my German friends (and Israeli for that matter, Arab or Jewish) are leftists too...but that dosn't make them (or me) a Baader Meinhof supporter! But anyway, it isn't the PFLP and PRC's politics that bother me. It's the fact that they earn their political influence by ignoring any deals that the PA or Hamas makes with Israel. I can understand they find the PA corrupt and Hamas' dreams of an authoritarian theocracy abhorrent, but these two groups are usually the architects of most of the worst terror attacks and rocket/mortar attacks on Israel. If there was Palestinian statehood and a peace treaty tomorrow, they would still be fighting whomever is in charge AND the IDF, which puts them in the same sort of unreconcilable position as the ultra-right Kahanists trying to take over Jerusalem and the West Bank, apartment by apartment.
Seriously. There is a growing income inequality in the West Bank that is becoming a big problem. Additionally there is no formal tax structure. The PA lives off of international aid and customs/border duties. Basic infastructure is lacking and there are still large refugee camps in some areas. Pretty sad considering the Palestinians are a very smart and well educated group of people. But to add one caveat, it is difficult to operate as a state given the circumstances it is in. Foreign investment is hard to come by when it's restricted and the area at times isnt safe. Just to show the differences here are some pics from my trip. Compare and contrast Downtown Ramallah Spoiler Spoiler Bethlehem Spoiler The Israeli settlement across from Bethlehem(which by the way they were actively building new additions to despite a moratorium on building at the time) Spoiler Downtown West jerusalem (which by the way is surprisingly lively and enjoyable) Spoiler
The policies of the Zionist regime are no different than Apartheid South Africa. It's no surprise that the US supported the Apartheid regime and now currently supports the Zionist regime. Obama's Veto on Israeli Settlements Demonstrates Contempt for International Humanitarian Law The US veto of a mildly worded United Nations Security Council resolution supporting the Israeli-Palestinian peace process and reiterating the illegality of Israeli settlements in occupied territories leaves little doubt that, in certain critical respects, President Barack Obama shares his predecessor's contempt for international law. All fourteen of the other members of the Security Council voted for the resolution -- which was cosponsored by a nearly unprecedented majority of UN members -- not only situating the United States as an extreme outlier in the international community, but placing President Obama to the right of the conservative governments of Great Britain and France. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-zunes/obamas-veto-on-israeli-se_b_838060.html?ref=fb&src=sp We clearly see what the international community thinks of the apartheid practices of the Zionist regime. Another symptom or byproduct of the root cause, which is the illegal Israeli occupation of Arab land. What missiles has Hamas been buying and using? Can you provide us with evidence to backup this assertion? Also, what kind of missiles does the Zionist regime buy and how many innocent Palestinians have been killed with Israeli "state of the art smart weapons"? Have more innocent Palestinians been killed than Israelis? If so, how many more? I know you'll be more than happy to provide us with this info since you claim to be "mr. objective."
I found this on google news: http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=372048 Otherwise all I have on the last wave of attacks specifically is anecdotal (a few friends that work in the army, and a lot of tired journalists).
While they mostly fire Qassam rockets, a ship was very recently seized that had several anti-ship missiles on board. I believe there was a thread on this in the past few days. I'm not positive, but since they use Apache helicopters I would guess that they buy AGM-114 Hellfire missiles. I know that they were using them 5 years ago, but I can't confirm they are using them now. If it helps, Wikipedia lists Israel as operators of this missile. I don't know where you would find the number broken down by the weapon that killed them. I imagine something in the dozens range, possibly hundreds. Yes, quite a few more. At least an order of magnitude, if I recall correctly. That tends to happen when a modern military is fighting a terrorist group hiding among a civilian population. There is only so much you can do to avoid civilian casualties. I for one call upon Hamas to quit hiding among the civilian population and start building isolated military bases and fighting with uniformed soldiers. The ratio of civilians killed to militants killed by the Israelis is something on the order of 3:2. Not great, but fair under the conditions. The ratio of civilians killed to military killed by the Palestinians is something on the order of 3:1. It is closer to 1:1 in the West Bank/Gaza (which is good) and more like 5:1 in Israel proper. That is not so good, especially since the IDF is pretty clearly distinguishable by their uniforms. Hope that was helpful.
Sounds good to me. Create other options in Gaza by removing the blockade and demolishing the tunnels for good, and the Gazans will take care of the rest. The strategy that Israel was/is employing is poor. The blockade appears to be intended to keep Gazans poor so that they are less likely to attack. They did not anticipate that Hamas will simply feed people less, rather than reduce their spending on offensive option. But alas, I fear that, just like in Palestine, there are some elements in the Israeli government that would rather keep Hamas in leadership. Just as Hamas would become obsolete if there was peace, there are key extremists in Israel who would become obsolete/less valuable if there was peace. To those scumbags on both sides, this is a game which they can only play if there is no peace. Palestinians and Israelis don't hate each other. They just don't KNOW each other and are currently hating the IMAGE of the other side that the extremist elements in their countries have created. lol It wasn't so long ago that some silly entity in Israel took steps to stop Israelis from sleeping with Palestinians. I'm sure similar rhetoric is being spread in the occupied territories. These are the kinds of things that make you smile and remember that people don't just hate each other, something unnatural has to MAKE them hate each other.
I can solve this problem in one day. If they take in my advice, we will see instant peace. Stop bombing Palestine. Especially the schools and hospitals. Stop all military actions and oppression against the Palenstinians. Abandon all settlements in Palestinian land. Abandon all occupied areas. Stop all meddling in their politics. Give them fair access to basic needs like Water and Electricity. Have the same rights and treatment for Palestinians as the israelis. Let other countires give them humanitarian aid. This will end all the violence.
Thats because this while saga has alwasy been and still is one sided. Who came into whose lands? The world stands by and does nothing as israel continues its genocide and ever increasing expansion of their borders. Bombing after bombing by tanks, aeroplanes, navy ships. Shooting after shooting, killing after killing, women, childre, the elderly. Entire families vanish in one moment. The world does nothing, absolutely nothing. Has there been a single day where at least one Palestinian hasnt died at the hands of an israeli? How come israel doesnt allow jounalists and humanitarians to go into places after its been bombed? One rocket bomb from Hamas and the whole world stands in condemnation. (rightly so but what about the israeli crimes) Every media outlet has their reps all over the scene. Its on every channel all across the world. Which one side are you talking about - the killers or the ones being killed?
