Actually the 'needless debate' bit was in reference to the disagreement over the true nature of the Patterson supporters' jubilation. I was and still am genuinely interested to hear your bit on Morey and thought the whole forum as a whole could have benefited from your usually productive discussions. But if you're in no mood to engage in such a topic then so be it. Maybe next time.
Sorry, leebigez, your original quote still seems silly to me, even in light of the explanation you offered in this thread. The quote referenced by Cxbby was: Now, if you had said what you say now: that you think Patterson's mentality to fit in rather than dominate may/will hold him back from becoming an all star-level player, I don't think anyone would have made a joke about it even if they disagreed. If a "backseat" kind of player simply means someone who won't be trying to become a star, I'm not sure anyone could definitively rule out that possibility at the start of the year-- in fact, I don't think we can rule out that possibility even now. What you said, however, was not only that Patterson was the kind of the player who "wants no part of finishing in the 4th" and "doesn't have it in him at all." This is something different than simply not trying to be a star, isn't it? Playing important minutes and being a star are two totally different issues. In fact, it sure sounds like you were saying Patterson doesn't even have the courage to play important 4th quarter minutes without wilting. Otherwise, I am not sure what you mean by "wants no part of finishing in the 4th." This, my man, what people find ridiculous and this is why I think we are within our rights to have a little fun with the comment. Patterson has finished in the 4th in college and now in the NBA and did pretty well with those minutes. It didn't seem like he was prong to wilting under pressure at all whether or not he is playing like a "star" or not. In fact, plenty of "role players" with role player skills and role player mentalities have done quite well in the clutch so I am not sure what "wanting no part of finishing in the 4th" has anything to do with being a "backseat" players under your later definition of a "backseat" player.
Yes that is a good bandwagon team to jump on. But let us be realistic Patrick of today is not the Patrick of college or even the summer league. Unlike you band wagoners. I watched every summer league game of Patrick and that is when I made my assessment that he was better than I previous thought, Better than Hill and could help this team. I said it early on and it wasn't because I jumped on someone's bandwagon. I still at the time prefferred Sanders. If you remember or not Sanders totally outplayed Hill and Patrick in the summer leagues. Totally. Yeah I know it's summer but it wasn't even close. And he continued to outplay them in the preseason and what little minutes he got in the regular season until he hit a rookie wall. Still I saw enough in that summer to think this kid could be our next starter. As you can read in my post before many bandwagoners were on I was highly praising PPat. And I started long before then. But not because Morey liked him, because I liked him. You can find that opinion throughout the summer and preseason. I stated we would be a better team when he backs up Scola. But in my mind I thought this kid had Landry capabilities only he would be a better defender. ANd you won't find these on the board, I clearly felt, hoped Patrick would beat out Scola by season end. I thought it was a long shot but my gut felt we would be a better team with someone like Patrick than someone like Scola. Since then Patrick is playing even better than I thought. Truly the training staff has made big inroads in his leaping ability and strenght. And Adelman has managed to instill enough confidence in this kid that he was lacking early on. People underestimate Adelman's ability to get the most out of his players. He is a genius at it. Anyway my point is jumping on their bandwagon is cool. It's a smart thing to do. But I respect people who have their on opinion on this board even if it is different than mine. And while I love Patrick and today would easily draft him with our 14th pick. Not even Morey knew Patrick would be this good this quick. By the way IMO Sanders will still be a solid contributor in this league. A good rebounder, much better shotblocker and probably better defender than Patrick. What separates Patrick is he has those skills plus a solid Mid Range jumpshot, Aldridge like. That's the difference IMO and it's a big difference. I wasn't able to see that in College highlight films that mostly show dunks. On a side note: I do believe Patrick has three point range or at least will have after an off season of working on it. That makes him even more deadly. I also think he has enough handles to play the three if he can just get a little practice there. I prefer him at PF but if playing the 3 keeps him on the floor than I am all for it. This kid is only going to get better and we have a PF for years to come.
OMR, I gotta agree with Cxbby on these points. First, it is completely unfair to say that Morey "missed" on guys like Dorsey and Taylor. Were there better players drafted after them? Yes. But you can say that about almost every single GM in the league every year! If you were to re-rank the 60 players drafted in 2008, there is a fairly good chance that Joey Dorsey is better than (or at least not much worse than) the 33rd best player in that draft. I'm also fairly certain that, if the 2009 draft were re-done today, Jermaine Taylor might land somewhere in the mid- to late 20s, higher than the spot at which he was drafted (#32). By your rationale, the Rockets "missed" with their selection of Akeem Olajuwon in 1984 because there was a player drafted after him who was better (Michael Jordan). And on Cxbby's second point above, that's all a part of being a good GM. (By the way, OMR, I find it somewhat comical for you to assert that you are a better "visual" talent evaluator than Morey. On what are you basing this? Because Morey didn't draft a guy you really liked? Because you once liked a player who Morey passed on and who is now better than Morey's pick? Does that sample size prove your point? OMR, I've got nothing but respect for you, but that's just plain silly.)
To be clear, I watch the games too. I liked Patterson since the summerleague and liked Lowry even before we got him and that is from many of the things I saw with my own eyes. My point is, when someone much smarter than me says something, I tend to want to listen to that, or at least question myself if I am seeing it differently. Without self examination we are all just a bunch of monkeys blindly driving around in rigs.
Bima, Old Man Rock, this really has nothing to do with being right or wrong, but more about what goes on in the sound bite world we live in. What was a wrong about in Patterson? I said he would be a good pro, safe and solid player. I also i thought it was a good pick. When morey and company said they had him as the 6th rated player, thats when I questioned it. To me, 6th rated player in any draft should be a multiple time all star. The 6th rated player should be one of the stars in the league no matter who is on the team. Thats when I said i dont think patterson has that of assertiveness in his mental makeup. What does that have anything to do with wanting out in the 4th qt or being scared because coach left him in the game. Hell, kevin martin really dont want that either, but he's still a good player. Its really a non issue because this has happened before with cowboy bepop. I dont care about ribbing if and when I'm wrong, I just find it funny or sad that almost every post or thread by the op has me on the brain. Use the search feature and read his/her posting and you will see what I'm saying. Bima, you and I have disagreed on alot of things and i owe you a sig bet. I dont, nor have I seen you make every post or thread thinking about me. CH had the backseat thing in his sig for awhile and that was that. Sometimes I forget I'm dealing with kids or posters much younger than me.
Like I said earlier to OMR, there is a difference between being "wrong" and being "ignorant". This is the difference. EDIT: To clarify for lee. You target what is available. If based on your evaluations the BEST player in the draft is rated as a 2nd string role player, then that is all you can get. We have no control over the quality and depth of each draft. Just because you have a certain pick doesn't mean you can all of a sudden make a cheese steak out of turds. You'd just have to get used to turd sandwiches.
CH, when I came back in this thread, do you still not understand when I say finish in the 4th? Is he the kind of player who will finish in the 4th like landry was doing last year? Is he a sam cassell type player who will make play after play the bigger the game is? See you dont have to be a super star to have that quality. There have been alot of just solid to good players that had that in them. I dont know if patterson has that. I watched him all through college and I didnt see it even prior to wall,cousins and crew arriving. As I said months ago, the only thing that will limit patterson is his mental makeup. I want to see what he adds to his game this off season and then the offseason after that. We will have a clarity about what kind of player he will be. It took an injury to Roy in last years playoffs to wakeup Aldridge and turn him into a beast. Hopefully the rockets will trade scola this summer and expediate pattersons growth curve.
You are basically saying at least 6 players in every draft will become multiple time all-star? There are only a total of 26 roster spots available for all-star, and even less depending on which conference the players are in. What do you think the chances are that every year 6 NEW players in the league will become MULTIPLE time all-stars?
That's something I can agree with and have commented on before. Early in the year, Patterson was hesitant to shoot and looked like he was more focused on making the next pass than scoring. I thought that he needed to become a lot more aggressive in looking for his shot and to score. LBEZ, I know you've had to notice (as I have) that Patterson has started to become more aggressive. He's not hesitant on shooting the fifteen foot jumper if he's open -- he was when he first started playing. I am very happy with his progression over the course of this season and I'm excited to see how much he'll improve this off-season.
You are right that we now live in a "sound bite" world. However, you appear to be playing the part of the guy who is making it such. If you listened to the ENTIRE interviews with Morey and Rosas after the draft, or if you read my multiple posts after the draft explaining their ranking of Patterson, you would have heard/read that the Rockets' front office only viewed the 2010 NBA Draft as having five (5) potential All-Stars at the top of the draft. REALLY, THEY SAID THAT!!! They could be wrong about that, but that was their view. They tried like hell to move into the top-5 picks to get a guy like Cousins, but they failed in their attempts to make a reasonable deal. The point is, they had Patterson ranked #6, NOT because they view him as a perenniel All-Star, but because they viewed him as the best available player who does NOT project as an All-Star, considering that all of their deemed "All-Stars" were off the board in their top-5. No worries, man. I try not to fixate on any other posters. One could work oneself into quite a frenzy doing that. That is why (apparently, unlike you) I have recently embraced the "Ignore" function on this BBS. I find that my quality of life has improved marginally since that decision. You should consider doing the same, although I wouldn't ignore posters like CH and Cxbby. They're quality posters who at least have some interesting things to say, albeit things with which you do not agree.
Of course you got to agree. Your arguments in this thread would fall to pieces if you didn't. But be open for a second at the possibility that you might be wrong. First who says 50/50 is a bad thing. I just threw at that number to make it clear Morey is not God. Yes of course other GM's have done as poorly at missing talent. But I am not comparing Morey to them. If you believe what Adelman said that when he saw Budinger on the board he approached Les and asked if he would by another pick. He didn't go to Morey but went directly to Les and requested this. Than you have to say what Morey did in that draft was Get us Taylor and the rights to LLull. In so doing he passed up Chase Bud, Dejuan Blair, Marcus Thornton and more. Yeah a lot of other GM's passed on them too. But Popovich didn't and Adelman didn't. And IMO he is accountable for that. I am not comparing him to the other GM's. I could care less about them but when I see Deandre Jorda slamming it down our throats and Dejuan Blair out rebounding us for the Spurs victory. I just wish he would have picked those guys instead of Dorsey Llull and Taylor and got Batum instead of drafting Greene. And IMO makes his player evaluation not perfect. You can disagree as I am sure you will and say it's okay he missed out on those guys because I still love him I see that as one Morey's weaknesses. ANd it doesn't mean it is not better than most GM's but it is not better than Adelman's IMO. How can I say that. Well I think I am better at evaluating players on the court than Morey. I know I'll get flamed for that but while Morey was hitting the books I was coaching and watching basketball. That doesn't make me close to the GM he is. But means maybe he needs to listen to get an Adelman type guy on his staff. And listen to him a bit more.
Actually, I didn't understand you to mean it that way. The post OMR post that your original post responds to was talking about Chuck Hayes' potential absence and who would fill in (between Patterson and Hill being the primary candidates) and I took the "finishing in the 4th" reference by OMR to mean that he would play the the majority of 4th quarter minutes rather than be the most prolific scorer during the 4th quarter or even the first one or two guy you look to to make "clutch" shots. I understood it that way because the discussion was about Chuck Hayes replacement and while Chuck Hayes played important 4th quarter minutes, he wasn't really a scorer in any quarter. Now, if you mean to say whether Patterson was going to be the primary 4th quarter scorer (and lead the league in 4th qtr scoring like Landry did last year) or be one of the top "big shot" takers, then I agree with you, he wasn't our best guy for that role-- Kyle Lowry has been that guy this year. Patterson, so far, has shown he's good at making baskets off passes and rebounds, but hasn't shown enough as to individual post moves and the ability to create. I don't know if he'll be one in the future or not, though I wouldn't exclude it since he sure doesn't seem to shy away from taking shots (whether they be Js or fast-break dunks) down the the stretch in relatively close.
At one time or another we had on our roster: Bobby Jackson, Bonzi Wells, Ron Artest, Kevin Martin, Brad Miller, Aaron Brooks, Chase Budinger. I'd go out on a limb and say he is indeed listening to an Adelman type guy on his staff.
We know now why the room erupted when the Davis pick was announced. I was never high on Henry either. I hope he keeps it up! Love his hustle and his jumper is on point.
Yeah, really. You dont think a 6th rated player should be an all star caliber player? Now, looking at his drafted position, if he makes the all star team, great news. David West was pick in that range and he's kinda in that boat. I dont have the draft in front of me to see the players drafted ahead of west. When you draft a guy higher than he was rated, thats when the franchise has problems. Marvin Williams was not rated higher than paul or williams on anyones board. sheldon Williams falls in the same boat.
He was the sixth rated player to Daryl freakin Morey. Not some average Joe Schmo GM. Being an all-star multiple times implies that you're either a star or a superstar. I don't think there are 6 players like that in every draft. Patterson was a steal at 14.
YA RLY 6th overall picks, since 1986, (which means all of these guys were ranked at least 6th or higher on their respective team's draft boards: Yeah some real "stars of the league" there. LOL, I mean the best player there is probably a tie between Antoine Walker and Tom Gugliotta and Roy. And I'm not kidding. All stars? Hahah Suffice it to say, you are vastly overestimating the amount of productive players that come from the 6-10 range. There's legions of studies that show your chances of finding one of the "stars of the league" are minute, and your chances of finding a complete bust are several times more likely.
Bima- Thats cool. Ch- thats cool too. I think patterson's development will go a long way to getting a guys like williams and howard. They should trade scola and miller for kaman. That would open the minutes up for patterson and backup minutes for hill. They should also let hayes walk and sigb a guy like thaddeus young. At the end of the 2012 season when howard and williams see martin,young,and patterson as 2,3,and 4 along with dragic and courtney lee, thats a team that will be ready for muliple title runs to me.
