The Celebration of Duke and Shane Battier

I never said Jalen represented it more than Grant or Shane.
Defining a culture is a big job . . .not one to taken lightly.
I cannot speak for THE RACE
I can tell you this. . . BLACK IN NY is different than BLACK IN HOUSTON
but they do have alot commonality but also alot of differences.

America is not a place where we SHOULD check our culture at the door.
Nor should we ask anyone too.

It is easy to say you tolerant . .. when everyone is the same
Tolerance is when every one is different and you still all good.

Rocket River

 

I don't disagree that that is ONE example of tolerance. But what about someone who looks like you not wanting to act like you, but wanting to act like someone who doesn't have your skin color...is it not intolerant to not just let him be "different" (from you) and still "all good"?

 

Thanks for explaining these, but still....what does this have to do with anything?

This isn't so much directed 100% at you, RR, but as ATW asked: I still want to know if I was a non-thug, non-hood, non-whatever black guy if I'd be considered a sell out by other black people.

Of course I know what a wigger is. Thing is though....and again this is from the outside looking in....there seems to be a level of vitriol and resentment present in attitudes like what Jalen Rose expressed about not only Grant Hill, but any black person who has ever played for Duke: "'They' (Duke) would never recruit someone like me (Rose)" sounds steeped in racism, both against white people and especially against any black person who accepts their recruitment, making him an Uncle Tom.

This is what I don't get. Duke recruits good players while (apparently) taking their families and backgrounds into account. This is racist on Duke's part? That they take measures to ensure that their reputation is upheld? And this makes black kids who come from good homes with good families turn-coat, race-betraying Uncle Tom's?

And as to your last point, there are huge differences between white in Houston and white in NYC as well, especially in a country as large and diverse as the United States. That said, small minorities of nut-jobs aside, I hardly think that the majority of white people down south consider white people up north (or anywhere else) to be somehow betraying their own people.

I'm really trying to understand the mindset of doing well (education, wealth, status, etc) = betraying your people.

In the meantime, thanks for the debate to this point. It's a heavy topic, to be sure.

I'm now going to go behave in a stereotypically Irish manner.

Erin Go Brach, y'all.

 

You would not be seen as a sell out.
Again . . . some might .. but hell some are stupid.
but the majority . . . would not.

Steeped in Racism? You bet. It is the reality of the racism of the past
where white people had the power to picked and chose the fate of black people and black people had little to no say in the matter.
So . . when one was Picked . . maybe there was resentment among those not picked?

You mean them dismissing Jalen for no other reason than he was from a single parent home is just ok. They made a judgement on him based on nothing but a statistical sociological study. Treating him like a statistic, a number . . . well that would piss me off too. I guess. Someone saying you not good enough but they have not even met you. Yea. . I find that pretty ****ty .

Why would you try to understand a lie?
It is not true?
It is not held by a majority of black people?
let me repeat . . . IT IS A LIE . . one that is being told over and over again in hopes that it will be taken as truth.
It is nothing more than the modern stereotype of black people.
We eat chicken, we eat watermelon and we think doing well is betraying your people. Those are the modern stereotypes.

Rocket River

 

Do you have any evidence that he was dismissed because he was from a single parent home?

 

yea he even mentioned that it was his beliefs then, but he just wouldn't back down from the same mindset. He kept saying that is what duke goes for and wouldn't take out from the issue that his perception that an education, family, etc made a person less black. If he backed out and said look I was wrong and just a kid, but he said that was what I thoguht when he was a kid, but when htey asked specifically about uncle tom, he just changed the subject implying he still has some belief in that

 

Yea , I think it makes sense, I think that if a white guy came from that socioeconomic background, they would be just as hesitant. That is why rose tried to kind of fit in somewhere and make it a race thing(like lebron did) when they don't realize if it was a white guy in the same situation, the result would be the same. Its more about socioeconomic background and what their incentives would be and wold their agenda align with the program's agenda not is he a black guy doing this or a white guy doing that. That is what is annoying he is trying to cop out and victimize himself into that.

Yea its unfortunate he didn't get all the same breaks, but many don't, and that was the way it is.

They wouldn't recruit guys like him and allen or even some white guy who came from a similar background bc if they are poor they need to goto the nba quick to make money, they need to be drafted faster so they have to individually perform or look to put up stats and get an opportunity right out of the gate. Duke is one of the few programs that regularly takes 4 year players like grant hill and their agenda and comfort allows this for them and not have to be in a rush to turn pro. Its not that one person is better than the other, its just one person is more suitable for the agenda of the program

 

Can we please chill with the whole "poor black people think blacks with $$ or education are sellouts"? That's bs. In all of my years of being black, having being around blacks in the hood and suburbs, in public schools, magnet programs in public schools and private schools, private and public colleges, working in corporate America, for the govt and at a black owned business, in cities and country towns.....most blacks that I know DON'T feel this way. They typically want to see you make it and will try to steer you away from trouble as long as you aren't putting yourself above them in some way, or coming across like that. If I hear someone being called a sellout, it's typically when they turn their back on their community and forget where they came from. If I hear someone being called an Oreo, it's typically because they decide not to hang around other black people and may not get down with things typical in black culture at that time (ie they may not like rap or r&b, or can't dance, or liked the Wonder Years but never heard of A Different World).*

Truth....

 

Thanks, that's interesting. But what if they just happen to have run into some non-black people they like most, and decide to hang with them a lot...and their personal taste in music just happens to be different? Should they not have that right, without having to defend themselves for it?

 

In my own upbringing at a very urban school, there was a great struggle in being accepted and being myself which naturally was just very different. As I grew older, in many instances I would find myself acting different, directly dependent on just who I was around or the level of difficulty of my classes.

While I would like to fully agree with what you stated, my personal experiences are somewhat opposing. At a young age I found like many, that learning was just a very uncool thing to do. This really brought about the "oreo" term, which basically correlated wanting to learn to not being black. So while you could say that it was just another term for nerd, at the same time it was not as it brought about questions on how exactly to be more black.

Anyways, this was just a bit of my own personal experiences. This "oreo" will now be quiet and listen to more of what you guys have to say on the subject.

 

There are sellouts in all races, but it seems like black nerds are doubly penalized for not conforming to the mold they're given.

 

Agreed, so in that logic, they have to confirm to the right tv shows, music otherwise they lose their identiy as a black person? Even that is absurd in my opinion

 

I think a lot of you guys are off. OFF, I say! But really, I don't think Rose was talking about Duke as a university. U of M is a superior school and in many areas better than Duke. So it is not about him thinking an elite school would never take him. I took the Duke hate and black players for Duke as Uncle Tom's as being more against the style of Duke basketball.

That means a strong, "team-first" "white" brand of ball preached by Coach K that made for a very homogeneous basketball culture. This is the same reason why there has been a general stigma against Duke players doing well in the NBA - that kind of basketball doesn't help train someone for the NBA. Rose, meanwhile, w coming from a more black and urban game where things are much more loose, showy, etc. So black players going to Duke and playing the Duke way means they are being subservient to Whitey and, thus, Uncle Toms. Duke would have never recruited him because they know he would not have bought into the system.

The extra stuff about Hill's family background was more personal resentment that I think most people have misread as being the main point in his hate for Duke and black players that play there.

 

Why is acting white a derogatory, negative thing? That's small minded

 

It suggests that one has turned their back on their heritage to blend in or get ahead, in essence saying that the way their race "typically" acts is in someway distasteful. It's usually an off-base description, the message behind it (i.e., be proud of your culture and don't try to hide it) isn't a bad one.

 

Is being educated, talking a certain way, or dressing a certain or 'acting white' actually empowering and saying that we are equal? Does the slang and perhaps less educated thug mentality actually derrive more towards and uncle tom being subservient to whites' since ti was during slavery and the racial times that blacks were not allowed to get educated and then it had been a struggle not too long ago. So the product of the white's oppressing the blacks, keeping them from getting educated was the reason they developed this other illusion of heritage of talking in slang and not getting an educated and so on.

i mean is it really just white to talk a certain way? I have met really ghetto type of white people as well, it usually amounts to maybe where they are from, socioeconomic background, schooling, etc rather than the pigmentation of their skin, and I have met black people do the same as well as brown or whatever else. So seems to me this so called heritage is more of a product of socioeeconomic background widespread rather than some sort of heritage of who you really are. It transcends race pretty clearly.


So if you did talk proper english, goto the elilte schools, see these white guys as your peers but not in just another realm, aren't you really truly standing up for equality and saying that no matter what has happened in our past heritage or the issues that led to a general socioeconomic issue in our culture, I am standing up taking the best of the bets and in that you are being less subservient to that white mentality and the culture that is a product of what they deprived the blacks of and what they thought we didn't deserve to have in the past?

I don't feel like rereading and reviewing my post, but I hope that makes sense on what I am trying to say.

 

They have that right. And in that instance, calling them an Oreo (being black but choosing not to identify/hang with us or like the cultural things that most of us like...ie black on the outside but different on the inside) would be a spot on description. That's not to say that it's right to call them a derogatory term, but if you simply said the meaning to them, ie "even though you are black you don't like to hang with us or do the things we do, for whatever reason", then you would not be wrong, right?

I*don't think blacks are the only people that may have an issue with someone in their group choosing not to identify with them or separate themselves for whatever reason. And the reasoning behind that has nothing to do with hating on someone because they are educated or trying to better themselves, which seems to be the misconception. I'm not naive enough to say that never happens. I'm sure it happens sometimes, as it does in every community. But it's not that prevalent as to where folks can make blanket statements like poor blacks hate on educated ones. That's simply not the case. Or shall I say I think I know enough black people to vouch that it's not the case for most that they know.*

 

What are you basing this on exactly? How many black nerds do you know, or black nerds that grew up in "non nerdy" environments? I ask because there is so much blanket throwing in this thread that this urban black nerd would like to know someones personal perspective when statements like this are made.*

 

I'll start by saying that I don't think I made my point clear anough, and I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said. However, since you took the time to write out a thoughtful post, I'll try to give a point-by-point response.

I think at best it more says 'we are all the same', which isn't really something we should strive for, IMO. Some might take it to an extreme and say that it sends the message, "You have to act like white people to succeed," though I don't know if I agree with that.

I agree with pretty much all of this, as well as the paragraph following it. However, I'm not really talking about speech mannerism. Jim Brown, just as an example, doesn't speak in anything remotely resembling ebonics or "ghetto slang", and I doubt anyone would accuse him of acting white.

I'm not sure if just trying to do what's best for yourself is as noble as you're describing it, but sure, I guess I can go along with all this.

My point is simply that we're in a society where wearing your culture/upbringing on your sleeve so to speak is at times frowned upon, depending on what it is. Where it's sort of encouraged to follow a set formula to professional success. Doing so can sometimes be called "acting white", which I said before is usually a mischaracterization.

Basically, I just think that as long as you're not being an overly deviant ******* about it, you should be able to carry yourself however you please. I also think people should celebrate their heritage, but that's just a personal thing. As long as you're able to contribute, you shouldn't feel pressured to act a certain way, but even if you do feel that pressure, you shouldn't succumb to it.