Very well said. I also didnt feel that Hill's open letter was as strong a rebuke as many are making it out to be. It was articulate and measured; I think he could have been sanctimonious in his letter, but he wasnt and I think, more than anything else, he represented himself and his collegiate program admirably.
Roofle. Repped. But srsly. Jalen apologized to Grant before the doc even aired. Before there was any public outcry or backlash, or any pressure on him whatsoever. At least when people falsely apologize, they typically do it when they're forced to... and not voluntarily or before there is any impetus to do so.
To tell you the truth, part of the irony here (for me) is the fact that Michigan's a really, really good school. They have a top-5 undergrad business program and their b-school is right on par with Duke's. (Not sure if this was the case in the early-90s, in fairness)
I hear ya. He knew what he was saying in the movie was offensive. You have to be living in a cave to not know calling a black man Uncle Tom is offensive. But, the fact that he knew it was offensive and left it in the movie and the fact that he has not said he's changed his mind about it suggests to me that he still thinks it was a truth that needed saying. As I said, I think the blame is misdirected, but I think it's too easy to write-off this accusation as sour grapes or something like that. There is blame to be passed around here. It really isn't too cool that Jalen Rose didn't have money or get to go to good schools or have two parents who loved him and would sacrifice for him. It's not Hill's fault Rose was dealt a bad hand, which makes the accusation unfair. But, it wasn't Rose's either. And that kinda sucks (except he isn't doing too badly for himself now).
The blame for the statement is 100 % on Rose, and Grant Hill's response was perfect. There is no blame to be passed around for the statement.
Agreed. That comment was important to the story being told in the documentary. Apologizing for it was not. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. It's a complex issue, and both Rose and Hill seem to have added to the discussion respectfully and honestly. I'd actually love to hear Rose open up and discuss his current thoughts on the subject more, and I think the two of them could have a good debate on it. Unfortunately, it seems like it would be very difficult for Rose to be completely honest without suffering for it.
This ideal has become a bit of a stereotype in and of itself. Maybe I live in rarified air .. but I don't know many black people that think that way . . . but hell . .. I'll be over there with my watermelon and chicken [WHICH I LIKE!] some do sell out some don't Their is not financial . .economic back of selling out. Rocket River Rodney King was not totally out of line.
nor do they care to learn I understand where you coming from in this thread It really comes down to BRANDING and NAME Recognition Take two black kids. . .dress them exactly the same way except On has on a DUKE SWEATER and A DUKE HAT and the other is wearing Raider Gear. . . . Are they perceived the same? nope! The DUKE brand attached to a black player attaches a connotation that elevates that person . . in a sense beyond his blackness. .e. HE'S NOT LIKE THE OTHERS . .. HE IS DIFFERENT . . .HE A DUKIE!!!! just like the difference between a U of H lawyer and an HARVARD Lawyer while they are both lawyers and study the same law .. . folx seem to give the Harvard lawyer a little extra respect. Rocket River Never liked Duke . . .they the Celtics of the NCAA
I remember the Duke Vs UNLV championship The Clean Cuts versus THEM THUGS in UNLV feel about that game. Rocket River LOL
I don't follow college sports. I never have. But I do watch the news a lot and I've seen my share of ESPN and the NBA, so I was certainly bound to hear something about Duke from time to time, which is to say that I'm familiar with their program as a casual/outside observer. The only thing I've ever known about Duke and their basketball program is that it is top-notch, Coach K is highly regarded, they are perennial contenders, and though I've never watched it, the Duke/UNC game is huge, and their players are, by and large, upstanding citizens. Not that it means anything in the grand scheme of things, but I've personally never heard anything about Duke having any media bias that exists separate from their year-in, year-out dominance. If anything, I'd like to say that you (and others, apparently) are hyping some perceived racial controversy, but it is obviously a very real thing and not perceived at all. Of course I'm aware of the stereotype of wealth and status equating to 'acting white,' as Moes said, but I had exactly zero clue that Duke somehow embodied all of this. I really had no idea. All I can say is that, as it pertains to Duke basketball, this is news to me. This begs the question, though: Why would black folks think Duke players are sell-outs? Because they (some? most?) don't come from the 'hood? Because they (some? most?) come from and/or currently have two-parent households? Because they (some? most?) speak proper English? "White" English? Because they (some? most?) graduate? Because they (some? most?) don't get in trouble? Because they (some? most?) are more "clean cut" as opposed to the tatted up, thug-life, gangster-gangster-from-the-top-of-the-list? What is meant by "status quo"? Hate Duke and its players because they don't propagate stereotypes? I've always admired Grant Hill and Shane Battier as people to emulate; men I'd want a family member to date/marry/be friends with. Why is this a bad thing in the black community? Is this a bad thing in the black community? As was addressed in a thread in the Dish, this sounds like classic jealousy from what I'm guessing is a surprisingly large percentage of an entire ethnic group toward a program of which I was completely unaware. To take it further....it really sounds to me like black-on-black racism steeped in jealousy. I'm not trying to provoke the ire of anyone and for all you hyper-sensitive types, I hope I haven't come across as offensive. My questions are honest. But as a non-college hoops fan white guy who is looking from the outside in at both Duke basketball and the black community in general and who admires the Hills and Battiers of the world, I just don't get it. Sorry about the length.
I think what you and some are missing is. 1. Grant Hill and Battier etc are held up in the black community. They are loved. They are seen as good folx. In fact, there is an large amount of agreement with his letter. Hell, alot of folx celebrating it. however 2. You do not understand the fundamental source of Jalen's statement. Jalen's word usage and terminology mangled imo what he was trying to say. Invoke the words Uncle Tom . . imo is like comparing someone to Nazi's While all you trying to say is that they are bad . .. saying Nazi takes it up a notch. Like I said in the UNLV vs Duke thing . . . Duke is often set up as the GOOD versus the EVIL BTW - IMO, Duke get an more than its share of publicity and coverage. to some it seems a tragedy if they don't win it all every year. . . and these are media folx! Rocket River
Fantastic post. To add another aspect to the discussion: How come people like Jalen Rose and apparently a not insignificant percentage of black Americans would think of people like Shane Battier and Grant Hill as "sell-outs", but you don't see the same mentality from Asian people - on the contrary. Would a lot of Asian people regard some Asian person as a sell-out who goes to Duke? Why are attitudes regarding "striving for success" so vastly different between two ethnic groups (on average)? My personal attitude has nothing to do with skin color: I prefer a Kyle Lowry, a Shane Battier, a Grant Hill, a Chuck Hayes, a Chauncey Billups any day over a "Birdman" Andersen or a Mike Miller. I also prefer a Yao Ming, a Dirk Nowitzki, a Chase Budinger, a Brent Barry over a Kenyon Martin or a JR Smith. I prefer decent people over thugs. If I was black, would that make me a "sell-out" or an "Uncle Tom"?
I agree completely on point #1, as is evidenced by the thread on this in the NBA Dish. As to point #2....near as I can tell my post sums up the sentiment: Duke players somehow aren't black enough. Or something. One of the lest things I said was "I just don't get it." I'm open to hearing explanations because the rationale I'm hearing is that Duke players are sell-outs, Uncle Toms, and essentially not real black people, whatever that means. It's almost like how you can't be a legit rapper unless you've been shot or done time. Again, I don't get it. This is basically my my question, as well.
Banana Coconut Apple . . . each of these have a meaning . .. that has nothing to do with fruit. the concept of 'acting white' is not a black only thing. Rocket River
Banana is an asian slur - Meaning Yellow on the outside. . white on the inside Coconut is a Mexican slur - Meaning Brown on the outside. . white on the inside Apple is a Native American Slur - Meaning Red on the outside. . white on the inside These have been told to me by members of these groups at different points an time. Each reference someone 'acting white' in a derogatory manner. Rocket River Black people have more of them . .from Orea to Eskimo Pie.
Thanks. Any slurs for white people acting black? Asian people acting black? Hispanics acting black? White people acting Asian? Asian people acting Hispanic? Black people acting Asian? As Lynus asked, for you, what constitutes "acting white"? What would constitute "acting black"?
For different groups . . . it is different More often than . . . if i had to define it . . . it is an attempt to distance yourself from your own culture. Do you know what a 'wigga' or 'wigger' is? some would term them as 'acting black' in that while they are from Suburbia they are dressing in a stereotypical 'black' manner. [dress, slang, attitude,] when it is nothing like he grew up with. In a sense . . . kind of like art . . .you know it when you see it. it is more about attitude and 'reasons behind the behavior' than anything. Rocket River
Isn't there an American culture? What is the benefit of focusing on and trying to uphold differences based on skin color? Isn't that to some extent the definition of racism? And what would you say defines "black culture", and why would Jalen Rose be more of a representative of it than Grant Hill or Shane Battier?
