I have to disagree with you big time on the ball handling bit. Lebron's ball handling is not comparable to Kobe, it's decent at best but not something special. Lebron doesn't use his handling abilities to get past his defender, he uses his brute strength and first step (which is incredibly fast for someone his size and strength). Kobe's ball handling skills are vastly superior to Lebron's.
1) lebron is not the PG. 2) are you saying derrick rose is a terrible PG? and i'm glad you brought up the 04-05 season. the year rudy was the coach, they didn't run the triangle. they basically ran a typical offense catered for a superstar and kobe averaged 6 assists. and he did it inefficiently shooting 43% that year. the triangle offense has actually helped kobe a ton b/c he doesn't have the pressure to do everything (hence when he tries to do everything, the lakers more often than not LOSE). and how the hell are you going to argue lebron is not the better rebounder? it's like saying dwight howard is a C and he's on the inside more. lol. what a ridiculous argument. you're bringing up ONE FREAKIN' SERIES to prove kobe's a great rebounder? are you freakin' serious now? i can bring up wade's 06 series vs the mavs and pronounce him the best player of all time. rofl. finals MVP is for the finals. to win back to back finals MVP, you must have great teams. that doesn't mean they're the best player in the L. just b/c previous players who has done that have been the best players in the L, doesn't mean kobe is still the best player in the L. why? b/c kobe didn't play like the best player in the L in the freakin' finals. . to be called the best player in the L, you have to play like it. when lebron retires 10 years from now, lebron's regular seasons will DESTROY kobe's regular seasons. absolutely destroy. MVPs, 1st team all-nba, 1st team defense all-nba, whatever you want to bring up. so lebron's not trying to reach kobe. he's trying to aim higher. lebron will be judged by what he achieves in the playoffs. right now, it's not good. to be the best player for the past 3 years and arguably 5 years and have no rings to show for it, it's a disappointment. he has to win now. he's trying to reach top 3-5 status of all time, if not better. kobe has already settled into the 8-12 range at the highest. i suggest you watch some heat games. he has elite ballhandling skills. his crossover is very underrated. and he can use both right and left hand, something only the very skilled players can do. like i said, b/c of his size, it makes it seems like all he does is uses his brute strength. if that was the case, he would be destroying people in the post ala shaq.
No, Most of Lebron's success came from bulldozing, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it because you can't blame physical talent. One thing Lebron can do when the offense is stagnant is to go full speed at the hoop with one or two dribbles and everyone would get the hell outta the way, where as Kobe, not a 260 pound athletic freak needs find other more creative ways to score. Even in the post up game, Lebron is still very effective without any decent footworks just because he is so much stronger and faster than the person guarding him. And in terms of passing, Lebron does have better courtvision and passing abilities. But he gets more assist simply because he played his entire career as a pick and roll iso guy, where as Kobe spend most of it under a balanced system in the Triangle. It's true that Kobe sometimes ditches the set and go straight pick and roll, but not nearly as much as Lebron does.
LeBron can go down as Big O No.2, and he still cannot hold Kobe's jockstrap. Regular season stats are so meaningless. And don't forget people called LeBron a choker because they were the heavy favorite to win those series. It's not like he's taking Smush and Kwame to battle elites. They won the regular season, they just need to perform on the same level. You have to doubt LeBron's leadership when they underperformed.
Lebron and Kobe both handle the ball on the perimeter quite a bit and they commit turnovers at pretty much the same rate (Lebron's turnovers have been a big higher than usual this year). In my book, that makes them comparable as ball handlers. I don't really care if Kobe looks "smoother" dribbling between his legs. I'm just judging based on the result.
You're forgetting that Kobe is so much better at making his teammates better! According to dumbbug, Kobe literally stuck his arm up Trevor Ariza's rear end and used him like a puppet during the Lakers championship run in 2009. Ariza has sucked since then because he doesn't have Kobe to will him to greatness.
What your argument boils down to is you don't believe in intangibles in the sport of basketball. That's quite evident. In order to acknowledge something you feel it needs to be measured or quantified somehow and that's precisely what that word does not mean. Hell, it's the polar opposite. Quite simply: I don't believe in that. I don't believe stats can tell the full story with regard to these things. There's always going to be something that separates the men from the boys -- and that something isn't always going to be something you can measure. You feel differently and I respect that. But it's not going to change my opinion. It's not going to convince me David Robinson was every bit the player Hakeem was. I mean, you've even gone so far as to argue that Chris Webber wasn't a complete choker. I didn't realize there was anybody out there brave enough to do that. Clearly, I'm referring to much more than just the infamous "timeout". Dude never wanted the ball his hands when the game is on the line and always played like crap in elimination games or Game 7's. You can chuck that up to luck or a curse or whatever. I'd think of it as a pattern. Regardless, I think at this point it's quite evident why we aren't seeing eye-to-eye on these things. And I'm fine with that. P.S. Assuming you are indeed a Rockets fan, I think it's safe to say which side of the Shane Battier debate you sided with
he should explain why the machine wasn't able to turn on its engines in los angeles. that machine is now running smooth in new jersey, and is actually winning them games. i assume it was the pressure playing under phil jackson. and ariza was a good role player b/c he was a 5th option. in 04-05, kobe had rudy as his coach. the triangle was not utilized. kobe averaged 6 assists that year. he basically ran a lot of pick and rolls that year too. furthermore, kobe's usage rating has been 30+ since forever, which is on par with lebron james. so you simply cannot say it's a balanced system. if you sw the past few games as an example, kobe LOVES to shoot, even when he struggles to make shots. that's just his MENTALITY. he'll never be a high assist guy simply b/c of that. derrick rose this year averages 8 assists only, and he's the PG. its very hard to score at the level that lebron has done, and dish out 7-8 assists a game. some people who had the fortune to watch oscar play actually think he's the best player of all time. it's not a unanimous decision b/c not many people nowadays saw him play. i never did. but oscar robertson is one of the names that pops up. and i'm sure there will be people who still put big O above kobe bryant. jerry lucas: "He obviously was unbelievable, way ahead of his time. There is no more complete player than Oscar." jordan, magic, bird, and now kobe were fortunate enough to play during an era where the media was covering the NBA. the big O would be rated higher if he played in today's era. he's been talked about as the most underrated all-timer of all time. so bad comparison you brought up there. and at the "can't hold kobe's jockstrap" comment. lol. are you saying oscar robertson can't hold kobe's jockstrap? you'd be slapped silly if you actually think that. did you doubt KG's leadership when his teammates underperformed in the playoffs year in and year out? what is different with the celtics? did his leadership suddenly gain a boost? oops, he had better teammates. trust me when i say this, lebron will go down as the better player than kobe bryant. he still has 7-8 more years of this type of play left. that would give him around 15 years of absolute dominance in the NBA. lebron just needs to win around 2 rings to go down in the top 5 of all time. kobe has won 5 rings and most people don't even put him in the top 5 of all time.
There is a difference between intangible qualities like "good position defense" and clichés like "will to win". I believe in the former, because they are actually observable (just not easily quantified at this time), and put much less emphasis on the latter, because they are typically products of media hype. Yet he was the best player on the Kings during the most important game of his career, Game 7 against the Lakers in 2002. What games in particular did he "choke" in? I am a Clippers fan (yeah, I know), and think Rudy Gay is a much better player than Battier, if that's what you're asking. I do think Battier does bring many of the aforementioned non-cliché intangibles by virtue of being an excellent defender, though, and that is where most of his value lies. BTW, this is a good example of media hype because Battier is (or was) 10x the defender that Kobe Bryant is but doesn't have the awards to show it. Same with Eric Snow, Quinton Ross, and a whole bunch of "nobodies".
Well, this is starting evolve into a semantics discussion since I equate position defense and the like with overall basketball IQ. Although, technically speaking you can't measure basketball intelligence so therefore that might qualify as an intangible asset. Regardless, I understand what you're saying and respect your stance. I'm just worried this distinction debate will turn cloudy soon if we continue along these lines. Let's see: There's the decisive Game 5 in 88-89 against Utah where Malone outplayed him. There's 20 points on 21 shots and a whopping 4 boards against the Lakers in Game 5 of 99-00 There's 21 points on 25 shots against the Lakers the next year in a Game 4 sweep. 01-02: The infamous game you keep basing your argument off of. 20 points on 21 shots. Hell, Horry had a better stat-line. 02-03: DNA (injured) 03-04: Garnett absolutely demolished him in a decisive Game 7. Sure, he was never the same after the Dallas series but that also doesn't help your case. 04-05: Rasheed and the Pistons hold him to 11 points on 16 shots in Game 5 06-07: Outplayed by Zydrunas in a Game 6 loss. I mean this respectfully: it's in your best interest to leave the Webber thing alone. Agreed regarding the Rudy Gay element. Hell, I don't think there's a single Rockets fan that wishes they couldn't have that one back. I was speaking more along the lines of where you opinion would side during the constant back-and-forth the pro/anti-Battier camps were having over the past five years regarding his value to the team. The anti-Battier side would usually cite the numbers and contend that type of production was easily replaceable. I figured you would side with them.
Perhaps, but in the interest of logic, I won't. I went through the elimination games for Webber (you got them all except his rookie year), and his cumulative numbers (8 games) are: 16.1 ppg 8.3 rpg 5.8 apg 1.0 spg 1.0 bpg on 38% FG So yeah, the shooting numbers in particular aren't great, but he did contribute in other ways through the rebounding and passing. Also, keep in mind that shooting numbers during elimination games are always going to be lower for the whole team due to the fact that the best players are going to be playing more minutes than usual and that everyone will give 100% on defense. But lest you think I'm rationalizing here, let's look at another player: 21.1 ppg 6.0 rpg 3.3 apg 1.4 spg 0.7 bpgon 39% FG That is Kobe "Mr. Big Game" Bryant's numbers from all of his 15 elimination games (I can provide the breakdown if you want): So you honestly think media perception has nothing to do with anything? We are so led to believe that certain players are "chokers" and certain players are "clutch", when the facts really show otherwise. In the end, basketball is a game of numbers-- you want to score more points than the other team. It doesn't matter if you do that in dramatic fashion, late in the game, early in the game, whatever. You have it so ingrained in your mind that Kobe is a big shot maker and Webber isn't that you are ignoring the actual information that is readily available. That is my problem with most "intangibles"-- it is completely subjective and mostly influenced by what other people say. It's not all in the numbers, because there isn't an accurate measure of defensive performance at this point in time (although they are getting better with on/off +/- and other advanced stats). My problem with intangibles is, again, things like "competitive spirit" and "clutch" which are largely fabricated concepts made to make sport seem more mystical than it really is.
If you mean ball handling as in literally just handling the ball (like how Kyle Lowry handles the ball on the court), then I agree that they are comparable. I guess what I specifically meant was crossover or dribbling moves, which Lebron is not nearly as good as Kobe. I suggest you take the fan boy glasses off. Lebron is unstoppable when he is fully accelerated, but to say his crossover is as good as Kobe's in his prime is absurd. Maybe if you mean in terms of ball handling and not turning the ball over, then sure they are comparable, but Kobe's crossover and dribbling moves are superior to Lebron's.
In your wet dream LeBron is already GOAT, but that doesn't change how the world see LeBron. Big O choked in playoff, then joined Jabbar to be the 2nd fiddle and won a ring, that's the resemblance we are seeing here. LOL, didn't you say the same thing on TMac 6-7 years ago?
Since 2000, Kobe won 7 out of 12 elimination games, won 4 out of 5 game 7. That's almost as good as you get since all modern players lose in more years than they win it all. How's LeBron stat in that respect? He has yet to win a game 7, every time he's pushed to the brink, he lost the series. When you try to compare, there's no comparison. And you don't take the stats out of context, if your opponents shot 35%, 39% is good stat. At the end of the day, it's win or go home that matters.
Thanks to ESPN Highest Field Goal Percentage in Final 10 Seconds, tied or down by 3 or fewer, in the last 3 seasons. Dirk Nowitzki 8-15 , FG% 53.3 Carmelo Anthony 9-17 , FG% 52.9 Kobe Bryant 10-21 , FG% 47.6 Lebron James 3-19 , FG% 15.8 Dwyane Wade 3-26 , FG% 11.5 Stay hot Lebron/Wade fans. Very Clutch
And I am pretty sure Kobe's first 3 elimination games got his average down big time. In 2 of the 3 he wasn't even a starter in that team. That's how you cook your number.
Here are the numbers, ordered by date: FG/FGA Pts Rbs Ast Stl Blk 4/14 11 2 2 1 0 2/2 6 1 0 1 1 7/16 16 8 3 0 0 7/16 17 2 6 0 3 9/19 25 11 7 0 4 10/26 30 10 7 2 0 9/19 20 2 6 1 0 7/21 24 3 4 1 0 8/16 24 4 1 0 1 13/33 34 4 1 1 0 8/21 25 7 4 5 0 7/22 22 3 1 1 0 4/12 14 7 5 3 2 9/19 26 11 3 4 0 6/24 23 15 2 1 0 He actually shot better (40.2% FG) in his first three games then he did later. LOL @you... again.
