Anyone else think the Astros should retire J.R. Richard's #?

Absolutely. He was my favorite player as a child...the first one I paid attention to when my family moved to Texas.

 

No, they have already retired too many undeserving numbers

No Problems with these 4
Biggio
Bagwell
Ryan
Jackie Robinson (league wide)

Jim Umbricht and Don Wilson both died while Astros so maybe i can see their numbers

But these 4 have no buisiness having their numbers retired, if the yankees and cardinals were as generous as the astros they wouldn't have any numbers left. No jersey should be retired any time soon (and that means berkman and oswalt also)

Larry Dierker
Mike Scott
Jimmy Wynn
Jose Cruz

 

I'll agree on all the others, but Jose Cruz was the face of the Astros for many years. So what if he didn't have gaudy, league leading numbers. He was #1 in the hearts of many fans for a long time.

 

I love that auto search at the end of the threads. From 2001:
http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=15380

 

Don't forget that, as a manager, Dierker also guided the Astros to 4 division titles in his 5 years on the job.

Dierker's career was also cut short by an injury.

 

James Rodney "J.R." Richard, #50

 

I couldn't find it on google but I've seen the online petition to get his number retired, I even signed it. I also think we don't give Joe Niekro enough credit. He is the Astros all-time leader in wins, Oswalt tried his butt off last year but came up one short before moving on.
Cruz and Wynn played in the early days of the dome, their numbers would have been much better had they played for, lets say, the Reds. Someone that was a decent hitter in the dome could go there and almost double home run output while batting average goes from .256 to .292 and not fall back for about 7 seasons. But man did his triples go way way down though. Some Houston fans think his number should be retired too, now that would be undeserving

 

Yes, they should.

Just because you retired too many numbers doesn't mean you shouldn't get the one snub right.

JR was the best pitcher ever to wear an Astros uniform during his Astros career. You can't "unretire" those you never should have, but you have to make that right. Whether or not it's the case, it *feels* like the Astros snubbed him because of what he went through off the field after the end of his career.

You're right about Berkman and Oswalt--and you're right about the Astros retiring way too many numbers compared to how the Yankees have done it.

But I'll take JR every day of the week over Oswalt *and* Ryan. And unlike Scottie he did it for nearly ten years (though admittedly more wild than effective the first couple years).

 

Not to take away from Richard, but he essentially only did it for 6 years (the 6th being the year of his stroke) with 5 of them ranging from very good to outstanding. Scott made 24+ starts for Houston for 8 seasons, with 6 of them ranging from solid to outstanding.

 

Roy Oswalt is a substantialy more deserving player. He was simply a better pitcher than J.R. Richard. He has turned into a bit of am urban legend because of the way his career ended but when you look at the facts.

Oswalt
3.18 ERA
150 Wins
.644 Win %
1.18 WHIP
7.4 K/9
135 ERA+

Richard
3.15 ERA
107 Wins
.601 Win%
1.24 WHIP
8.4 K/9
108 ERA+

Consider that J.R. Richard pitched in a pitcher friendly era, and a pitcher friendly ballpark. Oswalt still put up better numbers in the steroid era.

 

Sorry for Double post, thought i'd put up Ryan and Scottie's numbers as Astros, considering era they all fall short of Oswalt.

Games Started as Astros
Roy Oswalt 291
Nolan Ryan 282
Mike Scott 259
J.R. Richard 221

Scott
3.30 ERA
110 Wins
.576 Win%
1.14 WHIP
7.0 K/9
107 ERA+

Ryan
3.13 ERA
106 Wins
.530 Win %
1.21 WHIP
9.1 K/9
110 ERA+

I undserstand those of you that say he should have his number retired because scottie and nolan already did, but just because one undeserving player got an honor doesn't men they all should. I don't think Roy should have his number retired, and he's more deserving.

 

Damn, I never even noticed that. THanks for pointing it out.

 

The Yankee retired number list, while obviously mostly great, has Rizzuto, Munson, Guidry, Mattingly - all very good but not legendary guys. Berkman and Oswalt certainly stand up to those guys, and Cruz and Dierker are every bit as deserving as Rizzuto, who's pretty much nothing more than a career Yankee. The Cardinals have a couple of guys that I'm sure mean a lot to their fans but aren't appreciably great players: Schoendienst, Slaughter, Ken Boyer.

Granted, the Astros' history is not exactly littered with a wealth of great players so the Dierkers and Cruzs of the world standout a bit more. But all 4 are pretty legitimate retired number candidates, IMO - they offer some pretty impressive resumes. And 17 and 44 are no-brainers to me. Berkman, especially, is a boderline HoF'er.

 

Long over due

 

Good arguments in favor of Roy.

And I always forget that Scottie won 10 in '83.

But hey, if we're having legitimate discussion comparing JR with Roy and Scottie (and not "have you lost your mind??") that speaks volumes.

It's a snub that should be righted. Dude's number should be retired. He's better than every other pitcher whose number is currently retired (save, arguably, Scottie).

 

I'm a numbers guys, so I appreciate the posts: But you can't deny the nostalgia component to this - what Scott did in 1986 remains virtually untouched in Astros' history. And a lot of us have very warm memories of that. And a lot of us have fond memories of '04 and '05, too, when Berkman was nearly unstoppbale and came within about a millimeter of hitting the biggest HR in Astros history, followed by Oswalt delivering one of the single greatest individual performances in franchise history.

When you write the Astros' history, Scott, Berkman and Oswalt are integral parts of it (as is J.R., btw).

 

"There it is."

 

Dierker was an elite pitcher for the Astros, then became a fixture as a play-by-play guy and then a manager... very unique situation, he has been involved in a big way with the club for over 40 years... he deserves to have his number retired.

Wynn is a very under-rated player, and the first real "star" the team had. If you crunch his numbers he was extremely productive for playing in the Dome. I think he blongs there.

Cruz was good but not great, but he was a huge part of the hispanic community and was the face of the franchise for 6-7 years. He was a very good but not great player.

Mike Scott won a cy young, almost won another and was nails in the playoffs. His issue is he did not play long enough... his inclusion is debatable.

As for JR, he was probably the best pitcher to ever pitch in the entire state of Texas, he was simply dominant and had it not been for the stroke would have 4000 K's and 250 wins. I know he did not play a long time, and that he was not active with the team... I think he deserves to have his number retired.

As for the Yankee's comparison... we are not the Yankees, we have not played 100 years and are not that accomplished. I see no reason that guys who were the face of the franchise should not have their number's retired... guys I Cedeno, Ryan, JR, Dierker, Biggio, Bagwell, Wagner, Oswalt and even Clemens I believe are deserving based on the impact they had on the team history.