**The Official Shane Battier as a Member of the Memphis Grizzlies...Again Thread**

I don't think having a Battier type player on the floor hurts any team unless you don't have a player that can create on offense. All you have to do is park him on the corner three and as long as they're not rotating off of him, he's done his job on offense.

Defense, well Shane is Shane.

 

I don't see how people justify this stupud +/- system.

Battier may be playing perfect defense but if somebody else on the team can't and gets scored on, then regardless of what he did, he's going to be -2.

Battier played against a terrible Sac team and frankly, they won by 30+. So of course somebody is going to have a high +/-.

 

stupid* , quote the fail...

 

If he hurts the team, should it not be reflected in his +/- stats?

 

in other news, jermaine taylor is a starter for the kings?!

 

i wish only the best for shane. as much as i like him i wouldn't want him to end his career on the rockets unless we land a super star this summer or yao gets visited by a genie. i hope he goes somewhere classy like the spurs but i would be proud to see him on the celts or lakers...



if he ends up on the heat i wont be ok.

 

Well, my point is not +/-, but that if you have a player that can beat his guy one on one, and you have a player that can't leave Shane Battier, Battier does his job on the offensive floor even if he never attempts a shot in a game.

 

I believe tyreke is out, possibly Garcia as well.

 

I envy your wit.

 

And he is doing pretty damn well.

 

Shane got most of his minutes in the last 18 minutes, when the game was already decided. It wasn't hard for them to stretch the lead even further against the other teams 2nd string in the last 18 minutes.

 

I understand that -- I'm not arguing that the boxscore is useless. What I'm saying is that just because there are other factors to consider, that doesn't make something useless.

 

+/- is just saying how well the team played when the player is on the floor. What's stupid about that piece of knowledge? That is potentially useful information, especially if its collected over a large sample of games and across many different game situations. Patterns may emerge that really tell you something about the player, in that case.

I would have to agree with you that drawing a conclusion, "Battier was +23, he must have played well" is questionable. But with players like Battier who really do a lot of positive things that don't reflect in the boxscore, it is also questionable to draw a conclusion: "Battier's boxscore stats are crappy. He must have hurt his team tonight".

 

Not necessarily, just like how the "good stuff" he does doesn't show up in the box score, some of his bad stuff doesnt either.

For example, if Battier is 0-3 on the night (which has happened multiple times) and he is just camping outside in the corner, then it allows one of the defenders to slide in a double the penetration. Even if the ball is kicked out, due to the way he has been playing, there is probably a higher chance he will miss than make it, even if the defender needs to rush him since theyve been sagging off. If the ball isnt kicked out to him, then the guy who has penetrated or is in the paint is double teamed, and will most likely miss his shot as well.

What exactly are the good stuff he does? Yes, leadership, and etc etc blah blah but are there any technical good stuff he does? I don't recall him being particularly good at setting picks, nor at coming off of screens.

 

Batman could be playing the best defense of his life but if a guy like Kobe goes off for 50 points against K-Martin, then Batman is going to have - regardless of how he plays. And people use this +/- to justify INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCE on these forums all the time. "Oh look Batman was +23, hes playing well". Another scenario to consider, if Batman is playing like **** and rudy gay goes off for 40 that night, then Batman will be + even if he is 0-9. How does being 0-9 show that he is playing well on the court with the rest of the players? It's unfair to assume +/- shows how well the team plays together in a unit because it could be just one playing being on fire on either team.

 

But all that is reflected in the +/- - if we make less shots or they make more shots.

He is almost never out of position. He doesn't let people get by him easily. He is very good at contesting shots. He directs traffic. He is a pretty good passer. He helps teammates to be in the right spot. Etc.

 

OK. By the same token, is its unfair to assume that a player who scored 25 points played better than a guy who scored 8 points, because may be the guy who scored 8 points made a ton of positive plays that don't register in the stats.

 

Of course, you are right but the main point of the game is to OUTSCORE your opponent. Setting good picks, being in position are things that do have a positive impact for a team but people only consider those important because it helps the team SCORE. What is more important?: Battier scoring 8 points in a game and also doing 4 good things throughout? Or a guy who can score 25 by himself?

25 points > 8 points + 4 good things (8-12 points if they are a steal, assist or a block, etc)

And Battier was a dead weight in this offense. We talk about how AB didn't play well within the system, how about Shane being unable to make quick sharp cuts like Martin or Lee or Bud were about to do?

 

So after three pages here's what I've inferred:
1. Certain clutchfans are so pathetic/immature that even when Battier is no longer a Rocket they still need to get their fix by bashing him on the internet...
2. Plus/Minus differentials are misleading.

Is there anything I missed?...