How is it different? Both are aspects of free speech. Says you? And what if I say there is no legitimate outrage over me saying the N-Word? Its just a word afterall. You only consider it stupid because in your world view a cartoon of Mohammed isn't offensive while the N-Word is. I would say that means you are unable to see past your own bias and are making a subjective judgement based on your own viewpoint while being unable to consider any other viewpoint.
I never said walk up to anyone's face. I said "walk around." Anyway if proximity matters would you then consider that if someone drew a cartoon of Mohammed in a Muslim country that it would be OK then for them to suffer the consequences at the hands of Muslims there? What about Muslims in Denmark who were offended by the cartoons? Do their opinions matter since the cartoons were in shoved in their face, in some cases litterally. And there are people who get offended by stuff like that including making death threats. Heck here on CF.net we had a poster recently wish that another poster had his head crushed in. Is there argument that none of this should matter because its on the internet. IN that case if someone were write "All blacks were n------s who deserved slavery" and somebody else wrote "I'm going to kick your racist ass" would you defend the first person for his right to express tha opinion and call the person who threatened him a crazy radical who should just deal with it? You are comparing an Anti-Iraq war bumper sticker to a cartoon of Mohammed? A rather strange comparison but lets go with it. First off where is the gestapo? Are you saying that Government(s) are cracking down on your freedom of speech? Outside of Islamic countries I'm not aware of any government doing that. If you are talking Islamic countries are you then saying they shouldn't be able to dictate their own laws regarding free speech? As for the anti-Iraq war I agree some people will find that offensive but then again some people find the N-Word offensive. If free speech is what you prize will you stand up for me if I put a bumper sticker that has the N-Word on it and I get rammed? Further I understand why you are making that comparison but again this is a comparison based upon a bias and not truly on free speech. YOu are saying that an anti-Iraq bumber sticker is as innocuous as a cartoon of Mohammed. That may be so in your mind but that is obviously not a universal view. No doubt there are things that you find offensive that others do not. Sure and people who don't like Klan marches can just stay inside. No one forces people to watch those? Sure that is fine you are free to do whatever, with in the law, in your own house that people find offensive and I think that is fine. That said though a newspaper and the internet aren't your own house. Once on their they are on the public realm. What all this comes down to is a clash of world views. We may not understand why Muslims find drawing a cartoon to be as offensive or more so than most of us find the N-Word but that is the case. The problem I have with your position is that your argument is all one sided. Muslims should just learn to deal with it and we are going to rub it in their faces. If by deal with it yes they should deal with it peacefully but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be offended. At the sametime shouldn't we also be cognizant of the fact that Muslims are offended and that we shouldn't be rubbing their faces in it? Like it or not we live in a plural society and what that means is we all have to learn to be tolerant.
LMAO at ATW!!! Am I the only one who sees him throwing around insults like "stupid" and "moronic" and calling people "slow" for dissecting and dismantling his argument? You know what they say about those who resort to insults out of frustration. Keep going ATW, you are making the case for the other side of the fence. The mask is starting to come off, and your veneer of pro free speech activism is now turning into what you really come here for, thread after thread after thread: to bash Muslims at every chance you get. Seriously dude, ZERO credibility, ZERO.
I wonder how people would react if Islamic papers starting printing cartoons of Jesus on a dog's head or something even more perverse that would be unspeakable here. I am a firm believer in free speech, but I also think exercising it for the sake of pissing of another group and rubbing your right in their face isn't going to solve anything. Plus, I think you have a lot of anti-Muslim people who are chiming in for support this stuff. This is just going to widen the gap between the West and Middle East...that's too bad. Islam has a high level of intolerance, but it's hippocritical for us to attack one culture for being intolerant.... ...when our own is also fairly intolerant. just ask Gay people who want to get married but can't.
Absolutely. I have done so before. If your people as a group want to run a freaky ass mideval state, that's your choice. It leaves the Assault is still assault. If you take a newspaper and physically shove it in someone's face, that has nothing to to with free speech. And since they are an extreme minority, and Denmark currently is part of the western tradition that includes freedom of speech, with anything short of assault, they can deal with it. If the people of Denmark as a whole decide to institute Sharia, good for them. I will wash my hands of them and they can go back to the dark ages, while those of us who like modernity can start continue on. If someone in the USA wants to start up a newspaper or cable TV station dedicated to racist BS, you know what? It is perfectly legal. Witness Fox News. Again, from the beginning the point has been threats of violence in response to words and pictures is unacceptable always. Not sure why this is in question. The gestapo in the analogy would be the jihadi Muslim asshats who plan and execute my murder for defaming the Prophet. Islamic countries can set up whatever set of laws they want and when they never get ahead in the world because every body's education is so backward out of deference to the religious zealots, me and my Mohammad cartoon drawing peers will reap the rewards. If someone does that, the moron would be liable for damages. Not sure, again, why this is so controversial. Everybody would know you are a piece of trash racist and proceed to point and laugh at you, but you can do it. All the time I see people driving around with CSA flags in their auto windows. Somehow, they still live. Witness this moron: That car is driving around Virginia right now. Nobody as murdered the idiot yet. He just continues to prove himself an idiot racist redneck to all who see him on the road. Not to mention this dude: Nobody's murdered the Tea Partiers with the racist signs either. As a group, we just point at people like them and laugh. Yep. There's an ACLU card in my wallet right next to the NRA card. I fully support such groups marching when they obtain the proper permits, and let police provide crowd control. Look, here's the thing. If some Christian group made some ridiculous pronouncement placing demands on my freedom on pain of death, I know that most people here defending cultural sensitivities would be the same people lashing out at intolerance and idiocy. I don't ask anything of Muslims I don't ask for everybody else. I refuse to treat them like the runt child who requires special care to ensure his self-esteem doesn't get damaged.
More power to 'em. If they need help, give me a call. Certainly, the South Park guys have already done things to Jesus that they wouldn't do to Muhammad (if they were ever allowed to show him). If you go back in that thread they are listed out along with the stuff involving other religions, especially their favorite, the Mormons. Some of the anti-Jewish political cartoons I've seen in online Islamic newspapers would make a sailor blush and give a small child nightmares. If you want, I can pull some of those up and we can compare side by side with the Jyllands-Posten cartoons.
I haven't read this whole thread, but as a person of German descent I'd think ATW would be a lot more humble about provoking/attacking a whole religion the way he seems obsessed by doing. I mean, I can't get totally self-righteous about totally righteous American ideals (and they are righteous), because our country was founded on genocide and slavery, even though that was hundreds of years ago. I just can't bring myself to condemn an entire society or religion or group of people because I think it's our legacy as Americans to be humble, on account of our past. And here's this German, not two generations since the Holocaust, happily, energetically, enthusiastically and consistently provoking and attacking an entire religion and doing it without a hint of humility or shame. (Not to mention being a dick in general, but that's another story.) It's kind of remarkable.
It's not. Stop believing everything you hear on television. We could care less what you draw, or what you watch. Whatever helps you get through the day.
I'd like to add to the bolded part that, in the case of African Americans, they can and DO say that word. In the case of Muslims, we can't even depict the Prophet PBUH. So imagine something has been protected for centuries, all along people have depicted the Prophet in their way/opinion (in hell, as God, as the devil, several different ways) and nothing happened. Then one day, someone does it just to **** on Islam and the Prophet, and to see what will happen if you poke the crazies. What ATW doesnt get is that THESE ARE CRAZY PEOPLE. THEY WILL NOT LEARN FROM THIS. THEY WILL ACTUALLY LOVE THIS DAY. NON VIOLENT MUSLIMS WILL BE THE ONLY ONES WHO SUFFER ON THIS DAY ALONG WITH THOSE WHO GET ATTACKED FOR THEIR DRAWINGS. Free speech doesn't win here. Free speech protects your right to say things. It doesn't protect your right to live in security - that's a whole OTHER right. But the free speech banner is waved profusely as an excuse for wanting to bully others. It's nice to sit behind your keyboard and do this stuff, that's very brave of them. I hope you're ready to explain to the families of the people who will undoubtedly lose lives - "OMG I'm so sorry. I didn't expect crazy people would act crazy. I thought there would be a global mass epiphany among insane Muslims. Did NOT think this would happen." No one's life is worth losing over this silliness. Certainly not in the falsified name of free speech.
It is idiotic but I think this action is a far more noble cause than the Danish cartoonist. The Danish cartoonist was running his own little experiment, treating psychotic Muslims as lab rats, alienating people from each other. These guys truly believe (regardless of whether it's true) that this is protecting free speech.
I think part of the problem is deliberate misinformation. We see a group of people standing around a violent sign or hear them shouting. But then you realize if you go to any college campus you'd see something similar with the preachers or if you were at the tea party you'd see something similar with the guy talking about soaking the tree of liberty. As long as you do not know who the other side is, a third party can carefully construct a narrative for you to dislike/distrust them.
Then this isn't an issue, and it shouldn't have been an issue when the Danish cartoonists did it either.
They'd probably never know because they don't care. While it might offend them (I know plenty of people who are offended by South Park) I doubt you'd hear much in terms of threats of violence.
So when I heard about the cartoonist being attacked on my television was that a lie? The accurate statement would be that "not all Muslims care." Enough do apparently.
Muslims didn't make it an issue. The media did. They tell you what the news is and you listen. How much is enough? If it's zero, than that is enough for you to believe anything. And I could care less what you heard.
