Juan, Islam has two sources of "law". The Qura'an, which is untouchable, undeniable, unchangeable, and it according to Islam the word of God adapted to every generation past, present, future regardless of circumstances. The Qura'an does not say to lash people. It says to punish adulterers, which is the case in most religions I believe. The Qura'an says to follow the prophet. This is the second source of "law". The Prophet is human and, like everyone else, prone to mistakes. However, he was guided to avoid/correct mistakes by Allah and his angels. Therefore, if you lived how he lived, you are imitating the best Muslim. Following the Prophet is defined as: what he did, what he said, and what he believed. The problem lies with reporting of these things. The reports are classified in "Strong", "Medium", and "Weak" reporting. To read more about this, look up "Science of Hadith/Hadeeth". Don't make assumptions... either look it up or acknowledge that you don't know. Now, if you read everything about the Prophet there is to read in the entire world, no matter how vile, you could never assume that the Prophet would let this happen IMO. Strong reporting is always reliable, but it's when you go to the weak and medium that it becomes unclear. It becomes a judgement call. Sometimes those judgement calls are poor calls, just like in any judicial system. But more important than everything else, not all Saudi law is based on Shariaa (Islamic law). No country in the world can claim this IMO. Iran and Saudi are closest, but adopt very different extremist forms of it. I'm not sure if lashing a 75 year old can be considered "Halal" or moderate. Extremism is wrong in Islam. But only a scholar can decide what extremism is, not someone who just reads newspapers (such as the armchair scholars in this thread). A strong Hadeeth (Prophet's saying) for your consideration (paraphrased): In all things that are considered good, be moderate. Simple, easy, but constantly overlooked. Unfortunate.
Wam! Bam! Thank you Ma'am! Seriously DD, you are like a runaway train, you'll keep adding to your pile of BS until someone stops you. And when they do, you act like it was all just a big misunderstanding. I'm glad the truth finally came out about your ignorance towards the Islamic faith and the Saudi Gov't. Lets add some perspective on this issue. Americans perceive the Saudis as being backwards, having an archaic system, a money-hungry monarchy and ultra-conservative. All this is based on the random story that pops up of a ridiculous incident. Of course, the average American (DD) decides that this must be daily life for these poor, oppressed people! How will these street rats ever escape the tyranny of their govt??? I KNOW! Let's play Team America World Police and fix it! HOT DAMN, even Bush wasn't that stupid! I've lived in the country (Riyadh) and I'll be happy to tell you that the majority of people enjoy living there. With the oil wealth comes free education until high school. Over 25% of the annual budget is dedicated to education. As for the gender inequality in terms of education, the last census showed that 50% of male students pursue higher education while 60% of female students do. Saudis and public sector expats are eligible for a comprehensive package of benefits including, public health, preventive, diagnostic, and curative services and pharmaceuticals with few exclusions and no cost sharing. Most services including state of the art cardio-vascular procedures, organ transplants, and cancer treatments (including bone marrow transplants) are covered. Sponsors/employers are responsible for paying for an extensive package of services for private sector expatriates. (Wiki) The Ministry of Labor provides assistance to Saudis in the following categories: * the unemployed * widows and widowers * females who have no living family members to support them * orphans * the disabled * families of those serving custodial sentences * victims of natural disasters Without a doubt, the royal family oozes wealth. And with the stranglehold oil has on the world, what would you expect? I'm just trying to point out that saying that the Saudi citizens are being screwed out of their natural resources is unwarranted. In terms of the religious police, I want you to consider one thing first. When the average ignorant Saudi looks to Western society, he sees a land riddled with crime, murder, sex, immorality, disease, debt, corruption, you name it. They don't see our immense freedom or equal opportunity for all. They believe that their system protects their society from problems we have to deal with like HIV/AIDS, crime, murder, etc. For this reason, they are willing to accept "Big Brother" for all the good and the bad. These individual heinous incidents are not viewed as signs of the religious police being bad for the country. People will readily tell you that the religious police is very powerful and dangerous, but they are willing to live like that and trade away their personal freedoms for their perception of a better society. Let me say this, I am in no way condoning what happened or their system. I do not like their rules and the amount of power awarded to those systems. The sharia system is very complex and has a number of requirements before an actual punishment can be carried out. Take for example, theft. It is widely known that the punishment is amputations of hands, but what is never discussed are the actual requirements to pass judgment. Before any punishemnt can be imposed the following requirements must be met: # There must have been criminal intent to take private (not common) property. # The theft must not have been the product of hunger, necessity, or duress. # The goods stolen must: be over a minimum value, not haraam (not allowed under Islam), and not owned by the thief's family. # Goods must have been taken from custody (i.e. not in a public place). # There must be reliable witnesses. The problem comes from the Sharia courts and the religious police, the actual application of the laws laid out by the Prophet Muhammad and the Quran. Whenever you put power in the hands of man, there is bound to be error and abuse; it is not a uniquely Islamic problem. However, I am not afraid to admit that there is so much in that country's system that is flawed. Women not being allowed to drive on city public roads is ridiculous. It assumes that women are stupid and incapable of taking care of themselves or making educated decisions. I am glad to say that change is coming in some of the unfounded laws: Saudi Arabia to Allow Women to Drive I am sorry that this post is so long or that it is full of anger but enough is enough. As Americans, we make such a big deal about accepting people and their beliefs. I'm not asking to accept the Islamic faith or the Sharia system. All I am saying is that before you decide to stand on your soapbox, take a long hard look at the issue from all sides and try to understand what is going on. These people are not crazy, barbaric or hateful. And neither is their religion. Btw, I'll be heading to the ole Kingdom next week, I'll be sure to report back and let you guys know how the oppressed people are barely making it.
I not saying we should be at war with Saudi, but I do find your statement funny considering where the 9-11 terrorists actually came from
Knew what I was gettign into? You kidding me? yes, I grew up over there. I had never heard about the potential to be harrased for hanging out with friends. For the most part, I tell the Matawas to F off. They'll follow us around, and I pretty much confront them telling them to leave. And they do. It's pretty annoying to have someone follow you around. For example, i was at the mall with my mother like 10 years ago and she had an abiya (sp?) on and all, but like half an inch of her ankles showed at the bottom and some jackass was tryign to bother her about it. Totally off topic of the backwardness of KSA... Cool pic of Riyadh today.
Well, first of all define "come from Saudi Arabia". Secondly, if come from Saudi Arabia means pledge allegiance to the Saudi government then no. If come from Saudi Arabia means the government of Saudi Arabia supported them in any way, shape or form directly or indirectly, then no. If come from Saudi Arabia means some of them lived in Saudi Arabia for a period of time (no matter how long or short) then maybe. But (if you don't mind) the important thing is that you define what you mean by "come from Saudi Arabia" and show me what brought you to the conclusion in your post. If I'm wrong, I want to be corrected.
I am certainly ignorant on the Islamic faith, I don't believe for one second that Muhammed was talking to God, or an angel, I don't believe in Cartoons either...the difference is that no one is basing a system of Government on Spongebob squarepants. Awesome, enjoy your time there, but make sure you follow those archaic laws. Oh come on, do you really think we are going to do that, or that I believe it could actually happen? Getting world leaders to agree on emissions is hard enough, asking them to come to an agreement on something like this would never happen. Even if it were done properly and would actually benefit the people more....in the long run. DD
I was born in the united states, if I and a group of 16 others born in the united states decided to fly commercial planes into some skyscrapers in Riyadh, we would be know as the americans who flew commercial planes into skyscrapers in riyadh If you want to know where my response came from you can google it yourself as your response is ridiculous
Well yeah it's their mistake for not making it clear to you beforehand. Good to hear that they leave when you ask them to. Do you mind me asking what keeps you in Saudi? Work or just got used to it or? (Just curious, not related to topic, feel free to decline)
What if you were an illegal (don't know if this term is PC)? Born in the U.S. but your parents came over from Canada or Mexico or another country illegally? What if you were born there then lived in Saudi Arabia for 20 years before coming back to America to fly the plane? What if you held dual citizenship and you were Saudi Arabian as well? (There are literally hundreds of thousands of people like this) I know exactly what I'm talking about. I know for a fact that they didn't just come from Saudi Arabia because I don't just listen to the media and also because I don't listen to anyone on a message board that makes a claim like "they were from Saudi Arabia". So since I know where they're from, please go ahead and search for yourself if you care. If you don't care which Muslim country they came from, then I wish you had just said THAT and we could have avoided this discussion.
To the best of my understanding, and maybe that is limited, we are not intending to pack their oil fields in a suitcase when we leave, and they are holding elections of their own people and type of government there, so I'm not sure your exaggeration is constructive. Did we have influence on these things? Sure, the dictator was removed and the country was in a state of flux and instability. Perhaps the motives, offenses and results of the war are debatable, and I can't say I support what you're arguing against, but as with many arguments, digging in your heels and attempting to posit the other extreme to make your point is excessive.
Nahh. You're probably the only one here who hasn't searched it and I figure that if you're not bothered to search it, then you don't care to know. Thanks for the talk though. Later
IOW, they came from Saudi. You shouldn't take that personally as I meant it no reflection on the gov't or its general populace
I am not sure what Mathloom is arguing, but yes you are right that 14 of them were Saudi nationals. However, considering that these very same terrorists consider their own governments (the Saudis being at the top of the list) to be a bunch of apostates who should be beheaded at the first opportunity, I don't think they are a reflection on the Saudi government itself, which by all accounts is more progressive and more pro-American than even the average Saudi citizen.
That's awesome dude, I suggest everyone keep a mental note of this the next time DD decides to spew garbage. It takes a man to admit that he is ignorant about a topic. It takes a fool to remain ignorant about the topic. And it takes a DD to vocally demonstrate his ignorance, unabashedly.
