bigtexxx, Hadith is a very sensitive thing that, at this point, I can not bother to explain to you. There is, literally, a science behind the use of hadith. Wiki it if you please. But one thing you should know is that all Qura'an supercedes Hadith. Here is a Qura'anic verse: |4. And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever, they indeed are the Fâsiqûn (liars, rebellious, disobedient to Allâh). " Basically, the punishment requires four witnesses who are all considered credible. This is, saef to say, impossible. I will search this, but basically, the hadith comes from a similar story to "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."... Basically, the Prophet PBUH said that if there aren't FOUR credible witnesses to the act, then this punishment can't be used. Next time, ask and I'll tell you. You don't want to hurt your highly regarded credibility here, do you?
does honor killing apply to an ex wife? i thought once ur not married anymoe there is no honor to maintain anymore the article says he was abusive and they were both fighting for years and it threatened to escalate. it sounds like this guy was a thug and a control freak
Oh, and regarding this guy who killed his wife: 1) There are no honor killings in Islam. This is a cultural thing which applies to CERTAIN arab countries and I've heard in some African countries. 2) Here is a Hadith which sheds light on Islam's view on this guy: Hadith - Sahih Bukhari 8.800B, Narrated Ikrima from Ibn Abbas Allah's Apostle said, "When a slave (of Allah) commits illegal sexual intercourse, he is not a believer at the time of committing it; and if he steals, he is not a believer at the time of stealing; and if he drinks an alcoholic drink, when he is not a believer at the time of drinking it; and he is not a believer when he commits a murder." 'Ikrima said: I asked Ibn Abbas, "How is faith taken away from him?" He said, Like this," by clasping his hands and then separating them, and added, "But if he repents, faith returns to him like this," by clasping his hands again. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, and just in case someone was wondering, God is the one who will decide if you truly repented on judgement day. What happens to you during your lifetime is your own responsibility.
This post completely ignores the case at hand. Forget about Jasper, Blacks in the Old South, the DC Sniper, the OKC bombing, Christianity, etc. All of that stuff, at best, is only indirectly related to the story at hand. The story at hand is relevant for two reasons: 1. He beheaded his wife, as opposed to killing her in the myriad of other ways husbands more "typically" kill their wives...in America. 2. He was the founder of a Muslim television station specifically focused on portraying Muslim's in a more positive light. I'd say, because of both of the above, it is valid, and in no way racist or bigoted, to directly link this murder case to questions his religious views. That doesn't mean that he beheaded her or even killed her solely because he is Muslim...but it is something to think about. Now, if you want to post crime rates in America, and correlations with religious affiliations, go ahead and start another thread to do so - see where it goes (it's a common tactic here in the D&D to start a new thread based on a tangent from a different one). Though, I'd argue, especially considering the results of the last election and the larger number of young voters who tend to think a little bit more progressively and modern-ly, that there are plenty in America who are equally concerned about cases where Christian religious leanings imply certain violent tendencies...and those people are vocal about it. Moreover, in general, it's kind of difficult to argue that Americans aren't constantly debating amongst themselves their views on religion(s) and they're place in and effect on our daily lives.
Can't wait for that sect of Islam to isolate the knuckleheads....you can never truly get rid of them...David Koresh, Osama etc....but at least you can make them less main stream. God's Son should have been able to put 2 and 2 together here, the discussion of him being Muslim and the connection to honor killings is completely relevent. DD
While I agree that an culturally ignorant person could easily come to that conclusion, I have to say you completely ignored what I plainly showed you.. So just to confirm: THERE ARE NO HONOR KILLINGS IN ISLAM. HONOR KILLINGS ARE RELATED TO CERTAIN COUNTRIES ONLY AND ARE NEVER EVER CONDONED IN ISLAM, NOT INDIRECTLY OR OTHERWISE. So it is IRRELEVENT... although, again, I understand that if someone doesn't bother to filter out bull**** he/she would come to that conclusion. DaDakota, Islam, in my view has 3 layers. One is the top layer, which is peaceful and easy to follow and doesn't hurt anybody. The third layer shows an intense love for God and all his creations and shows the beauty of the ability to THINK and make LOGICAL decisions. It is when people get lost in the second layer and don't bother looking for justifications, rationale or deep-rooted meanings that they resort to stupidity - exactly as this guy has done and exactly as a terrorist would do. That is not Islamic extremism. That is Islamic ignorance. Islamic ignorance is, as an analogy, when you claim to be able to run a company as a CEO but in reality you only have the skills to be a non-creative, routine, boring, but a decent employee. You should just be that employee and not take your mediocre expertise and claim a self-justified leadership role. This is the problem, I believe, you are reffering to and it is no way, shape or form equivalent to knowing Islam inside-out - which is inferred when you say extremist.
The objection is that many are taking it as more than something to think about, but actually leaping to the conclusion that Islam is the cause of this murder and that this murder is evidence of the violent nature of Islam. Obviously, the question will occur to everyone, but that he chose a beheading and that he's a founder of a Muslim TV station does not point many arrows in the direction of Islam. I think the more obvious conclusion is that this was a non-premeditated crime of passion where he went a bit berserk in his anger. If he had any opportunity to think, he might not have wanted to not ruin everything he worked for with this TV station with a decapitation. That he'd resort to beheading instead of, say, multiple stab wounds, may be the result of a deep-seated cultural context that might be informed to some degree by Islam. That he'd take a divorce so hard has something to do with Islam. That he has a chauvinist attitude about women (possibly) is cultural and might have something to do with Islam. That he'd resort to violence may be cultural, but I don't see where Islam comes in. That he'd use a beheading might (or might not) be cultural, but almost certainly not from Islam (can someone give many examples of beheadings in the Koran?). Given all that, I object to broad brush strokes on Islam for the incident.
Mathloom, I appreciate what you are saying but to me, Islam is the same as any other religion, something man created to explain the unexplainable, and it is exploited to the detriment of mankind. As far as Islam, I have never been able to reconcile the Satanic versus, and how they are somehow not relevent in discussing Islam, because those came from Muhammed too. DD
DaDakota, i don't expect anyone to know the Quran or the Hadith or anything surrounding them except what the media tells them. If you truly want to understand the Satanic verses, I will address them for you, but it won't be easy without a large amoutn of background. I'll do my best: 1) The Prophet PBUH could not read or write. This means he memorized everything. This is not a big deal, as you can search youtube for the hundreds of 8-yr olds who have the Quran memorized today, even some whose native language is not Arabic. In simple terms, think about how many song lyrics you have memorized and that number will dwarf the number of verses in the Quran. This means that... 2) The prophet would receive the Quranic verses from Gabriel, the angel. He would then memorize it. He would then recite it to the Sahaba (Sahaba means companions, these are a known set of people whom you can google/wiki). They would, in turn, memorize or write the verses down. But it's also important to know that... 3) The Quraan is divided into chapters. Each chapter has numbered verses. I believe the Bible is similar. These chapters and verses are NOT the order in which the words of Allah were relayed to the Prophet PBUH. Different verses were relayed to him at different times and they are not in chronological order in the Quran. Eac hverse was descended with a purpose. For example, there would be a case of adultery, and a verse or a bunch of verses would be relayed to the Prophet regarding adultery. He would then recite these verses to the Sahaba. However... 4) The final verse is the one which says - I'm paraphrasing - "Today, I have completed your religion for you"). That is a verse, i.e., it is the words of Allah. What I'm about to describe is considered a miracle on its own in Islam. The Prophet proceeed to arrange ALL these verses all over the place without anyone's help in the order that we curently have in our books today. Meaning, he took verses covering hundreds of pages, and effortlessly recited them all in the order that they were then meant to be compiled. The miracle here is that the Quran (and I wish you could read Arabic) reads as if it was meant to be that way. Everything fits together perfectly, every chapter has a topic, and the verses of those chapters are in perfect logical order. 5) Now here's the Satanic Verses' role in all of this. The verse is as follows: "Have you considered Allāt and al-'Uzzā / and Manāt, the other third?" and Gabriel got angry and asked the Prophet why he recited it that way. This is the level of Satan's deception - even Gabriel didn't know what's going on. Gabriel correcetd him with the following: "Have you thought of Allāt and al-'Uzzā and Manāt, the other third? Are there sons for you, and daughters for Him? This is certainly an unjust apportioning. These are only names which you and your fathers have invented. No authority was sent down by God for them. They only follow conjecture and wish-fulfillment, even though guidance had come to them already from their Lord. " AFTER God comforted the Prophet with the following verses: "We have sent no messenger or apostle before you with whose recitations Satan did not tamper. Yet God abrogates what Satan interpolates; then He confirms His revelations, for God is all-knowing and all-wise. " 6) Your core set of assumptions are that the Qura'an was politically tampered with and that's your opinion. However, The Prophet faced HUGE attacks from the Meccans for withdrawing the Satanic verses. Why would he do that when, at the time, he was not in control of them? Why would someone who's making things up say something so bluntly wrong? BUT MOST important of all, the verses don't fit in the logical order of the Quran. If you were to insert it in place of the amended verses, there would be HUGE contradictions within the book. 7) Your assumption that the Prophet PBUH was politically influencing verses is flawed.. Because it would imply that the Prophet had the ability to, over his life, randomly read out these verses, then effortlessly put them in logical order and that at some point he said the exact opposte of what he was meant to say, and it is something that was already findamentally incongruent with what he had been saying all along. Also, why would he come out and said Satan did this... Other than for transparency? Couldn't he just have said "whoops!"? He was, after all, just a man. 8) Final conclusion... This incident may very well have happened a few times, but it wouldn't matter, because they would immediately be corrected by Gabriel. It's just a lesson in how Satan works, on how the Prophet is human and susceptible to Satan unless God protects him, and how God was protecting the Prophet. Does it mean any more than that? Zilch. Personally, I don't understand why people take such issue with this. The Prophet was a HUMAN, like me and you whom, if left unguided, would make mistakes. It is disclosed in Quranic explanations and in hadiths. So unless you think this is an indication that Satan could have tampered with a lot and not been detected (a HIGHLY illogical conclusion considering the context) then it doesn't change anything. Hope that helped. It's long, but you've been mentioning the Satanic Verses a lot in the last few weeks so I hope this helps. If you have any more questions, I'll be glad to ask. Otherwise, I'll be happy if you just read what I wrote.
very well said, indeed. though, it is interesting to note, bigtexx didn't really directly associate the story with his religion in his first post. rather, the first substantial reply on the topic was trying to argue that there is no religious connection as opposed to portraying it all about his religion.
He could've titled the thread "Founder of TV Station Kills Wife". I mean when the guy who shot up his ex-wife's family Christmas party people didn't run headlines, "Christian goes on Killing Spree." I agree with JuanValdez, religion might've had something to do with this but from the information presented that is speculative.
So if a Christian shoots someone we can say that is religiously motivated since many Christians have shot people? What if a Christian behead someone then are the actually a Muslim?
That's a weird argument. The majority of honor killings take place in Muslim families and/or nations. Whether or not it is "officially" condoned in whatever religious texts people feel relevant is a moot point. The obvious example: Christianity does not condone bombing abortion clinics, but those who have bombed them proclaim themselves to be ardently christian. It's not irrelevant at all. It's very relevant, and worthy of investigation.
