I agree to an extent...but KG can only guard smaller Centers who can guard a great big one, especially if they are over 245. He's not going to slow down a center, like a Shaq or Ewing. Don't even pretend that. Maybe, Tim Duncan, but not KG. In a way, I thought he was overmatched in Gasol matchup, but the big thing was Gasol played very meekish throughout the finals. I thought if Gasol played slightly more aggressive he would've had KG in foul trouble alot of games. Because, he couldn't stop Gasol physically.
A 50 year old Deke is better shot blocker than any other center in the NBA right now including Duncan and DH if he plays his minutes. If Dream play today he will be better shot blocker than most center in the NBA. To refresh your memory. Dwight Howard - 36MPG - 1.7BPG Yao Ming - 32MPG - 1.8BPG Yao Less minutes more block shots, but nobody quastion DH defense while they thinks he is so great. Other than rebounds DH is an average defender for his size and get lost a lot on defense. With DH athletic ablity and size he should be putting Alonzo Morning type of blocks and intimidation, but he is not and get a pass for being overrated by his rebounding capablitlies.
Perhaps he won't shut big Cs like Shaq or Ewing down, but cmon... he could guard them with some effectiveness if he had to. Yao flat out cannot guard a big guy with range. He's never going to be able to guard guys like Okur or Nowitzki or an Al Jefferson. Obviously in Nowitzki's case he plays PF, same with Al (SF too), but the point is, Garnett could guard those guys and not get killed. Yao is better at guarding strong guys than KG is, no question. But KG can guard more types of big men with good results than Yao.
Ok... this is just horrible cherry picking of stats here. These are career numbers, yes Yao averages more career blocks than Howard, but who cares about career numbers? Until a year ago Howard wasn't even a top 3 center. Its not fair to include his first three years in the equation when he is a much different player now. Thats like someone saying Houston (if Yao hadn't gotten injured) was as good as a 55 win team at the end of the season. Sure, we won 55 games, but you have to account for the fact that we played much better in the 2nd half than the first half of the season. I think Yao's the better center, but Dwight is the better defender (if Dwight wasn't a better defender there wouldn't even be an argument because he's basically Landry without the defense). He's a better defender for the reason I mentioned in my last post. Yao can guard stronger Cs better, but Dwight can guard different types of Cs with good results.
The celtics use a man-zone to cover for garnett which is why he looks better than he was when he was in minnesota.
Eddy Curry sucks but he was averaging 20 points per game when we played against the knicks. Yao ended up getting 33 points and 8 blocks. No one , not even dwight howard, made curry look so pathetic.
how is it not fair if you include Yao's numbers in his first three years and likewise include dwight howard's numbers in his first three years? You've watched their head to head matchups. Dwight Howard is not as effective against Yao as he is against other centers. Same with Eddy Curry and a host of other centers. Just as kevin garnett wasn't utilized properly when he was in minnesota , Yao wasn't utilized properly on defense when he was under JVG. Lets wait till the season starts to see his development under Adelman.
Its not fair because Dwight was 18 when he entered the league and Yao was 22. Dwight was a project, it was known that he was going to suck his first three years, not the case with Yao. It just so happens that Dwight averaged more blocks this season than Yao did (2.2 to 2.0). Why should the first 3 years of your career matter when we are talking about NOW? Of course, because Dwight is a really good matchup for Yao, same with Curry. Strong Cs with no range. Problem is, they are the only two Cs in the league that score alot yet can't shoot from beyond 5 feet. I don't understand what the argument is. Dwight, KG, and Tim Duncan can guard guys beyond 10 feet; Yao can't, but Yao is better at guarding the stronger Cs (which there are fewer of in the NBA). These are the facts.
The fact is even dwight, KG, and Tim Duncan cannot guard guys beyond ten feet by themselves. You need team defense especially with the new rule changes which discarded the mandated man to man (illegal zone defense) scheme. If you watched the pistons vs. celtics series, KG got beat several times by Antonio Mcdyess driving to the basket because he has to guard him in the perimeter. Tim duncan could not guard Kobe on the pick and roll and got beat several times because he had to go out on the perimeter. With the rule changes implemented by the league , stifling combinations of man to man defense combined with zone can neutralize even a kobe bryant. Even michael jordan did not face the kind of man to man /zone defenses kobe did against boston. For example, one defender ( Posey) sticks to Kobe on the outside making it extremely difficult for the offensive player to pull up for a jumpshot simultaneously another defender is planted in the lane just outside the 3 second area waiting for the charge while another is waiting for the block. Thats good team defense which the celtics employed against kobe. We can use that type of defense to utilize Yao effectively on defense. You have to be fair to Yao also, Kevin Garnett was not as stellar a defensive presence in Minnesota because the defensive system did not utilize him properly. He won defensive player of the year because the team's defensive system utilized his strengths properly apart from the team's defensive system utilizing the other players properly in the defensive scheme to cover for him if he gets beat. If KG was that good , why couldn't he carry Minnesota by himself? We haven't seen Yao utilized properly in a good defensive system and display his defensive prowess because he was playing INJURED practically the whole of last season . That stress fracture gradually developed. and secondly we only saw him for a full season in JVG's defensive system where he was not utilized properly because he had to flash out on the guard in the pick and roll thereby exposing his weakness. I don't think it was "known" that Yao would not suck in his first three years. No one really "knows" how good a player will become, thats not an excuse for dwight howard that everyone expected him to suck. Anyway, a good defensive system and good teammates can make a world of difference between being a mediocre defensive player and being a defensive player of the year. Ask Kevin Garnett.
Not true, guys like Tim Duncan and KG can guard guys at the FT line and not get burned. Yao can't. I really disagree with you about KG. One of KGs strengths on defense is he can guard basically anyone except for front court players. I remember back when he was in Minni and he was helping on Tmac on the perimeter late in games. But the thing is, Yao was expected to be able to contribute in a year or two (and he did). Dwight was known to be a project, as is usually the case of highschoolers making the jump to the NBA. And we are missing the point here. It doesn't matter that he wasn't known to suck... the fact is that his first three years in the NBA he DID suck. History doesn't matter... now matters.
Well I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Kevin Garnett was so helpless in Minnesota and was in the wrong defensive system which did not exploit his strengths properly on the defensive end. That is why Minnesota sucked so bad, no one was calling attention to his defensive prowess while he was in Minnesota. Everyone was unanimous that he needed help. By himself , he cannot guard perimeter players he even got beat by Antonio Mcdyess in a game of their series against the Pistons, after that Boston made adjustments. Tim Duncan got burned by Kobe trying to guard him at the FT line on the pick and roll in their series numerous times. Duncan also got burned trying to guard Chris Paul at the FT line on numerous occasions. As for history... when we talk about career AVERAGES the statistic takes into account the past and the present... it is a mean of all games played in their career. I distinctly recall not everyone expected Yao to contribute in a year or two among which was Charles Barkley and others who called him a bust. The fact that it ended up the way it did is called HINDSIGHT. as the saying goes, " hindsight is twenty-twenty". If we have the right defensive system in place which I'm sure Adelman and his staff will work on, anyone of Yao, Artest, or Battier could be the defensive player of the year next season.
I agree with your examples. Big guys can't guard peremeter players. Even Battier cant guard guys like Gasol. But guys like KG can guard players at the elbow and contest their shots while Yao can't. Yao has to stand back a few feet and force them to shoot over because they will just dribble around Yao. And it doesn't matter how good our defensive system is, if Yao doesn't have the ability to shutdown quick bigs other than hope they miss open jumpshots, no one will ever consider him an elite defender. But you were trying to use it to say that Yao is a better defender than Howard. Why do the first 3 years of your career even matter if we are talking about NOW. If the question is "has Yao been a better defender than Howard throughout his career", then use career stats, sure. But we are talking about NOW. I'll agree with that, but you are missing the point. The point is that the reason Yao's career numbers are better is because Howard was basically a project for 3 years, Yao was definitely not.
.2 make him so much better, then Duncan is as bad as Yao. Sorry but DH can't guard players beyond 10 feet either, he have the ability but his defensive IQ is really low, and he get lost once he leave the paint area especially in P&R, his team defense in not that good. He is athletic enough that at time cant recover from his mistakes but his defense presence is far from getting the impact of a Duncan or Mutombo give you. There is a reason why center shoot long jumpers vs Yao even when they are not good jump shooters. I remember Dalembert take and missing tons of long jumpers vs Yao. Why? because they don't even attempt to post him up because they will fail. And you don't mind the other team center taking long jumpers because they are low % shoots and limited them of getting offensive board by having the big man far from the basket. Houston have been one of the better defensive team since Yao got here, before Battier was here, before Alston was here, before now that Artest is here. Once Yao or Mutombo is out is a layup practice from the opposing team. Yao defensive impact by blocking and altering shoots while scaring teams from attacking the basket is priceless.
Yao is a good defender, according to these three stats.....PA, PiP, and AS. Points Allowed (by opposing player) Points in the Paint (vs. opposing team) Altered Shots
This shows how little you understand basketball. The Celtics use a zone because Garnett is so long and so quick that he covers a ton of ground in the paint. They're not "covering" for Garnett, they're utilizing his strenghts as a defender. He was the freakin defensive player of the year!! My god.
It doesn't. But the point was that you had a guy saying Yao was better defensively because his career dunks were higher than Howards. First of all, Dwight can guard guys at the elbow because he's fast enough to get back if they try and drive to the basket. He would've gotten eaten alive at the Olympics if he couldn't. He can't guard them at the 3 point line obviously, but then again no C can guard guys at the 3 point line. Second of all, lets just say for the sake of argument that Dwight can't guard players at the elbow. That would mean he isn't any better than Yao (probably worse actually). That would mean he is overrated big time on defense. Does Dwight being a bad defender mean Yao is good? No it does not. The debate here is whether Yao is an elite defender (like Hakeem was) or just an average to above average defender. I'm just using Dwight as an example, if you think he sucks (and I don't really want to argue with you about whether Dwight is a good defender or not) then we can just as easily use Tim Duncan or even Hakeem. There ARE big men that can both guard quick bigs out by the FT line and are strong enough to keep most Cs out of the paint. Yao isn't one of those guys cause he doesn't have the ability to guard the FT line. You are absolutely right. Thats why they take jump shots, because they know Yao is too strong to post up. And when you are talking about guys like Howard that can't hit an open jumper at the free throw line worth anything, then Yao does great against those guys. But against guys like Tim Duncan, or David West, or Carlos Boozer, or Amare Stoudimire, or Kevin Garnett... those guys can hit that jumper. And suddenly Yao's inability to guard that is a BIG problem.
First of all, who the heck is talking about Dwight Howard? This thread is about Yao Ming's defense? I never said a thing about Dwight Howard's defense. Sounds like the Yao Ming lovers can't say anything about Yao without bringing up Dwight Howard's name. Second of all, blocked shots aren't the only indication of defensive ability but they are important for a center and since Yao is the tallest player in the league it's important to understand why someone like Shawn Bradley, the player most similar to Yao's height, is a far superior shot blocker to Yao. Yao has slow foot speed, he has slow lateral speed, he has slow reaction time, he jumps slowly, and he jumps slowly on multiple jumps. The only players that Yao is going to "shut down" are the players that #1 do not have a jump shot to bring Yao out on the floor, #2 do not have the quickness to create separation on their shots over and around Yao, or #3 players that don't have a skilled post up game. So a player like Dwight Howard, no jump shot and no post moves, is going to struggle against Yao Ming in a half court offense but he'll kill Yao in a fast break offense. This is not because Yao is an above average defender it's because Dwight Howard is a below average skilled offensive player. He can't bring Yao out to 15 feet and shoot over him. He's not skilled enough to bring Yao out and drive past him and he's not skilled enough to post Yao up and give him multiple offensive moves to score. Dwight Howard scores 20 points per game because he can jump and he's strong, he cleans up the boards and gets a lot of dunks.
Racial discrimination in the US is not a myth , it is a reality. When an Asian averages more blocks than an african american who is touted to be one of the best centers of the league ( hence a valid benchmark) , it does not qualify him as an "above average defender". And yet when an african american player like garnett became defensive player of the year when the previous year he was a mediocre defender under a previous system the reaction is " he is the freakin defensive player of the year!! My God" . It is so unfair to diss the accomplishments of an african american player and yet it is justifiable to diss the accomplishments of the only asian player in the NBA. tsk. tsk.
