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LATimes - Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by HayesStreet, Dec 5, 2006.

  1. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    What they capture, they keep. When they lose, they complain to the U.N.
    By Raymond Ibrahim, RAYMOND IBRAHIM is a research librarian at the Library of Congress. His book, "The Al Qaeda Reader," translations of religious texts and propaganda, will be published in April.
    December 5, 2006


    IN THE DAYS before Pope Benedict XVI's visit last Thursday to the Hagia Sophia complex in Istanbul, Muslims and Turks expressed fear, apprehension and rage. "The risk," according to Turkey's independent newspaper Vatan, "is that Benedict will send Turkey's Muslims and much of the Islamic world into paroxysms of fury if there is any perception that the pope is trying to re-appropriate a Christian center that fell to Muslims." Apparently making the sign of the cross or any other gesture of Christian worship in Hagia Sophia constitutes such a sacrilege.

    Built in the 6th century, Hagia Sophia — Greek for "Holy Wisdom" — was Christendom's greatest and most celebrated church. After parrying centuries of jihadi thrusts from Arabs, Constantinople — now Istanbul — was finally sacked by Turks in 1453, and Hagia Sophia's crosses were desecrated, its icons defaced. Along with thousands of other churches in the Byzantine Empire, it was immediately converted into a mosque, the tall minarets of Islam surrounding it in triumph. Nearly 500 years later, in 1935, as part of reformer Kemal Ataturk's drive to modernize Turkey, Hagia Sophia was secularized and transformed into a museum.

    Protests aimed at keeping the pope out of Hagia Sophia rocked Istanbul right up to the morning of his visit to the site. Contrast that intolerance with the tolerance granted Muslims in regard to the Al Aqsa mosque — this time, an Islamic site in Jerusalem annexed by Judaism. Unlike the permanent Muslim desecration of Hagia Sophia, after Israel's victory in the 1967 war, the Jews did not deface or convert the mosque into a Jewish synagogue or temple, even though the Al Aqsa mosque is deliberately built atop the remains of the Temple Mount, the holiest site of Judaism and, by extension, an important site for Christians. Moreover, since reclaiming the Temple Mount, Israel has granted Muslims control over the Al Aqsa mosque (except during times of crises).

    All this illustrates the privileged status that many Muslims expect in the international arena. When Muslims conquer non-Muslim territories — such as Constantinople, not to mention all of North Africa, Spain and southwest Asia — those whom they have conquered as well as their descendants are not to expect any apologies, let alone political or territorial concessions.


    Herein lies the conundrum. When Islamists wage jihad — past, present and future — conquering and consolidating non-Muslim territories and centers in the name of Islam, never once considering to cede them back to their previous owners, they ultimately demonstrate that they live by the age-old adage "might makes right." That's fine; many people agree with this Hobbesian view.

    But if we live in a world where the strong rule and the weak submit, why is it that whenever Muslim regions are conquered, such as in the case of Palestine, the same Islamists who would never concede one inch of Islam's conquests resort to the United Nations and the court of public opinion, demanding justice, restitutions, rights and so forth?

    Put another way, when Muslims beat infidels, it's just too bad for the latter; they must submit to their new overlords' rules with all the attendant discrimination and humiliation mandated for non-Muslims. Yet when Islam is beaten, demands for apologies and concessions are expected from the infidel world at large.

    Double standards do not make for international justice. Either territorial conquests are always unjust and should therefore be ameliorated through concessions, or else they are merely a manifestation of the natural order of things — that is, survival of the fittest.

    If some Muslims wish to wage eternal jihad until Islam dominates the globe, they are only being true to Islam and its doctrines as they understand it. However, in that case, where the world is divided into two warring camps, Islam and Infidelity — or, in Islamic terms, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War — how can these Muslims expect any concessions from the international community? The natural conclusion of the view that "might makes right" is "to the victor go the spoils."

    The fact that Turkey conquered Constantinople more than 500 years ago does not prevent the Turkish government from returning Hagia Sophia to Christendom today, which would undoubtedly be a great gesture. But of course that can never be. The Muslim world would undergo a "paroxysm of fury" if a Christian pope dares pray in the conquered church; what would the Muslim world do if Hagia Sophia were actually converted back to a church?

    But perhaps Muslims cannot be blamed for expecting special treatment, as well as believing that jihad is righteous and decreed by the Almighty. The West constantly goes out of its way to confirm such convictions. By criticizing itself, apologizing and offering concessions — all things the Islamic world has yet to do — the West reaffirms that Islam has a privileged status in the world.

    And what did the pope do in his controversial visit to Hagia Sophia? He refrained from any gesture that could be misconstrued as Christian worship and merely took in the sights of the museum. Moreover, when he was invited into the Blue Mosque nearby, he respectfully took off his shoes and prayed, eyes downcast, standing next to the the grand mufti of Istanbul like a true dhimmi — a subdued non-Muslim living under Islamic law and acknowledging Islamic superiority.

    And therein is the final lesson. Muslims' zeal for their holy places and lands is not intrinsically blameworthy. Indeed, there's something to be said about being passionate and protective of one's own. Here the secular West — Christendom's prodigal son and true usurper — can learn something from Islam. For whenever and wherever the West concedes ideologically, politically and especially spiritually, Islam will be sure to conquer. If might does not make right, zeal apparently does.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/printed...5,1,130272.story?track=rss&ctrack=1&cset=true
     
  2. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

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    I wonder how long I'll have to wait to see this "torn apart?"
     
  3. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Contributing Member

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    It's far, far too easy to do that with this article, and it's rather obvious why, so I won't even bother.
     
  4. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

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    There's no reason to be elitist about it... just say what you think is wrong with the perspective if that's what you think.

    It's not obvious to everyone; it matters not whether you laugh, cry or scratch your head about that.

    Why not just say what you have to say? Sheesh-- I'm almost inclined to suggest that your criticism validates the point the article wants to make... :eek:
     
  5. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    i agree with most of what the article has to say- it's why we changed the name of the invasion of afghanistan, which IIRC, originally was something about a crusdade. ****, it is a crusade- a crusade against ignorance, fear, opression- islam needs to get it's ass out of the 12th century.
     
  6. Major

    Major Member

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    How is this different from any other group of people anywhere in the history of the world?

    When Al Queda attacked us, we asked for help from the rest of the world. When we attacked Iraq, we said we have the right to do what we want. What group doesn't do such things?
     
  7. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    Well, the article did give a pretty good comparison with the mosque over the Temple Mount.
     
  8. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    Between you and SC I guess we don't need a D&D.....obviously.
     
  9. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

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    Are Muslims free to worship in the US?
     
  10. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Contributing Member

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    It's too easy, there is no joy in it. It's like debating giddyup...what's the point?

    I could just keep posting hundreds of historical facts that would completely destroy the author's credibility -- that is assuming that he had any to begin with.

    'Nitpicking' history is always fun...but I have a feeling Hayes won't object this time around.
     
    #10 tigermission1, Dec 5, 2006
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2006
  11. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    Geez, you'd think the LA Times would do some fact checking if there are hundreds of inaccuracies in the story. I don't want to take too much of your time but can you give us a few short examples?
     
  12. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Contributing Member

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    No, no, not 'inaccuracies', more like convenient omissions...

    And is it your contention that the LA Times never gets its 'facts' wrong?

    Good, let me bookmark this thread for future reference, I have a feeling it will come in handy one of them days.

    Still having nightmares, giddy? :D
     
    #12 tigermission1, Dec 5, 2006
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2006
  13. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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    Fact is, Islam spread via conquest - do you debate that?
     
  14. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    So he is accurate but the picture he paints is incomplete? I'm operating in the dark here, tigermission. I'm asking you to be specific. You don't have to go point for point on all of the hundreds of facts he has wrong but some direction would be nice. :)

    Not at all. You know me better than that.

    Not sure why. You claimed you could list hundreds of facts disproving this author's position. I'm just asking for you to name a few.
     
  15. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

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    No, I haven't gone to bed yet... still waiting for your substantive reply... :D

    I don't want to get into a pissing contest here.

    If you'll notice my first post was "non-commital." I am inclined to agree with the author's conclusions but was awaiting corrections of factual assertions. I'll take convenient omissions. Are they forthcoming or not?

    I love how it is adjudged that I (giddyup) can't debate because "you" can't convince me. Is that a skewed worldview or what?
     
  16. thacabbage

    thacabbage Contributing Member

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    Wrong. Conversion was discouraged during the Umayyad period (first dynasty after Muhammad's death) and it was far more preferable for the state to collect the jizyah. The very purpose of expansion was to collect the tax and this fact is well documented by any historian worth his weight as well as the fact that the Umayyads were genuinely racist and discouraging towards converts. In fact, in 750 CE at the time of the Abbasid rebellion and subsequent overthrow of the Umayyads, only 8% of the Middle East (within Islamic rule) was Muslim. It wasn't until 100 years later that even 50% of this territory had converted and not until 950 CE that 80% were Muslim. The idea of "conversion by the sword" is one of the greatest myths in history. The earliest Muslim invaders didn't want people to convert. That is a fact.
     
  17. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Contributing Member

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    Yes, you're wrong.

    The Arabs conquered lands, but did not forcibly convert its inhabitants. In fact, the Arabs ruled over parts of what we refer to today as the Middle East for nearly five centuries where Muslims were a minority in the lands they conquered. In practical terms, The jizya was one factor. In theological terms, the Quran prohibited compulsion in religion (Sura 2:256 "There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing."; Sura 16:82 "But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you)."; Sura 4:79, 80 "Say to everyone of them, 'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self,' and that We have (O Prophet) sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper." ).

    The biggest factor in spreading Islam in the early centuries was commerce, not the sword. Muslim merchants and traders were the biggest catalysts.
     
    #17 tigermission1, Dec 6, 2006
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2006
  18. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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    Yes, Muslims conquered lands....by FORCE....and the result was the expansion of the Islamic world - the world people like Bin Laden claim as Muslim land - from Spain to Indonesia.

    Sure, people are given the choice - join the victors or be a second class citizen...I guess in your eyes that's not spreading via conquest... :rolleyes:


    Fact: Islam spread by conquest. Muslims conquested land, and where they conquered, people converted, as what happens when you conquest something. You only use a very narrow definition that people were forced to convert by the sword.

    No where do you mention the second class citizenship and lower social status that a conquered people inherited for being non-muslim. I like how you leave out that in order to justify your argument and spin it into a "conversion by the sword" argument that I must be asserting.
     
    #18 NewYorker, Dec 6, 2006
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2006
  19. jo mama

    jo mama Contributing Member

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    at times, so did christianity.
     
  20. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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    But you don't see Christians today trying to reclaim Bethleham do you? You don't see Christians today waging Jihad to get back their holy places such as Istanbul. Christians have let it go.

    THat period - the crusades, are considered part of the "dark ages". Now...don't you think all this jihad to recapture "Muslim" land is just a modern day crusade? Should the modern world have to tolerate this?

    Should Hindus start trying to reclaim Pakistan? Should tribal leaders reclaim North Africa? I mean, what are you advocating?

    Are you trying to excuse jihads or what?
     

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