My stance, which SJC cowardly attempted to distort, has always been that the Arabs are in a pathetic state and are not taking the proper course of action to regain their past glory. Terrorism is completely unacceptable. It not only besmirches legitimate causes for liberation but is strictly forbidden according to Islamic law. It is not permissable to even cut down trees, let alone attack civilians. However, only a fool like Sir Jackie Chiles would look at such a complex issue in such a basic manner. It is not only dangerous, but also counterproductive to keep one's head in the sand and contend that terrorism is committed for no reason, as he foolishly suggests. If you stubbornly blame this recent phenomenon on some factor inherent within Islam, you are basically welcoming a clash of civlizations to which there is no humane solution. Islam isn't going anywhere. While the Muslim states are in the most pathetic of conditions, Islam is as strong as ever. The only viable solution, if you subscribe to Sir Jackie Chile's school of idiocy and ignorance, would be to eradicate Islam. That is not pragmatic, so the alternative is winning this struggle through hearts and minds. And that shouldn't take much. Just the termination of hegemonizng the Middle East.
lol. There you go again with your cheap demagoguery. Pray tell why anyone in Syria or Saudi Arabia would give a rat's ass what he or any other Arab American has to say? Just because they're both Arab or Muslim doesn't mean they have the same experiences and struggles. This notion that Muslims need to root out extremists is so ridiculous. Every time CAIR and other moderate Muslim organizations denounces any terrorist actions or any time any Muslim scholar denounces terrorism, you same people simply write it off as apologeticism and disingenuity in attempting to appease the West. That's not even including the fact that the Arab world is not one homogenuous body which holding each segment in Islam. You mean to tell me you would give any worth to the political opinion regarding America of someone in Switzerland on the account he is also Caucasian? Nonsense! Furthermore, the only reason extremists even come to power in Muslim countries is because their people see them as the only component strong enough to contend with western hegemony. really, this is so ridiculous. why would they fight their own people when they're already under constant attack by the west?
You see, for you it is about "regaining glory". How about becoming peaceful first? I believe that you are one of those who is intolerant toward other religions and who thinks Islam is "better" than other religions. That explains some of the aggression and intolerance you display in this thread. You slipped and called Non-Muslims "nonbelievers" in this very thread. That shows what you are made of. Arrogance and intolerance are both components of that term. Well, finally. But - then why do you clutch at straws to make up excuses and shift blame instead of doing something against it...because the truth is, you saying terrorism is unacceptable is lip service as long as you continue your "terrorism is unacceptable, but..." routine. Obviously, there are perceived reasons which those who preach hate (or those who are fools like you) abuse to instrumentalize idiots who will fall for the demagogy and who will then go and strap a bomb onto themselves. However, by stupidly insisting that the alleged "oppression" or "neocolionalism" are the "reasons", you work toward a justification of terror, even if you just gave lip service that it is not acceptable. I have seen the same rhetoric from Palestinian activists on TV a million of times: "No, terrorism is completely unacceptable. However, what do you expect when evil Israel and USA oppress our people, blah blah blah blah." The statement that terrorism is unacceptable is mere lip service. The truth is that those who make those statements and then continue with a "but" either actively support the terror attacks or sympathize with them. The "reasons"/"root causes" are a pretense. Terrorism is unacceptable. Period. No "but". First of all, it was you who, in this thread, came up with the idea that the terror attacks could be traced back to some factor inherent within Islam, then you failed to answer your own question. Next, I personally don't believe that there is necessarily a factor within Islam (any more or less so than in any other religion that has the inherent claim of believing in the "right" God) that makes it more or less violent than any other religion. However, I believe that it is evident that Islam as it is practiced today is abused more as a pretense and justification for terror than any other religion in the world today. It would be important to analyze the reasons within the religion as it is practiced today which contribute to this being possible. Certainly, poverty in Islamic-dominated states (and the subsequent desire to find external scapegoats for said poverty) is one contributing factor. However, it seems that nowadays, purely statistically speaking, more militant intolerance originates from mosques than from churches or synagogues. Why is that so, thacabbage? Maybe it would be helpful to have an unemotional discussion about this. Finally, your thesis that believing there are reasons inherent within Islam as it is practiced today would inevitably lead to a clash of civilizations to which there is no humane solution seems to be based on a belief that Islam is not capable of being reformed. Perhaps Islam needs a repositioning and a reformation? Perhaps Islam needs a peaceful leader that helps it to arrive in the 21st century instead of preachers of hate who deviate from the original, peaceful messages of Islam? Perhaps islamic leaders need to learn to separate church and state at some point? Your words sound like "islam is the way it is and if you don't accept that, there will be a fight to the death". I think that there needs to be a dialog among religious leaders, and non-religious ones which is based on mutual respect. Unfortunately, some leaders within Islam preach the opposite. This is completely untrue. What a simple mind you are. I never stated or implied that Islam needs to be eradicated. Perhaps your belief in having heard that is a reason for why you are so defensive and aggressive at the same time (glad you can't strap a bomb onto yourself to silence me, but are restricted to expressing your hate through a message board). As I said, I believe that Muslims around the world need to question why Islam, as it is practiced today, is the religion whose name is most abused for purposes of terror in the world. And I think you are making it too easy for yourself if you keep looking for external reasons only (evil West, evil Israel, evil Neocolonialism). That is propaganda which those who bring terror to their own and to the world (like the Mullahs in Iran) use to solidify their power. Pointing at an external enemy and stirring hate against that perceived enemy has always helped dictators to stay in power, and the Islamo-fascist leaders in Iran and elsewhere are no different. Let me also address your statement "While the Muslim states are in the most pathetic of conditions, Islam is as strong as ever." This statement is stupid. Islam is not strong as long as its name keeps getting abused to pursue terror, and as long as the rest of the world perceives Islam as a religion of intolerance and aggression instead of a religion of tolerance and peace (as it should be, if the name of Islam was not abused by extremist elements). As long as that is the state Islam is in, Islam is weak, not strong. There you go again. You make it easy for yourself and trace back Islamo-fascist terror to a purported "hegemonization of the middle East", apparently as the single "root cause". That shows where you are coming from: It's all the West's fault, the poor terrorists are just fighting a liberation fight, they have a just cause, they are just reacting. Very transparent. Answer my question, what about the bombings in Bali, what about terror in the name of Islam in Kashmir? Who is being hegemonized there? Are you implying that all would stop if Israel was wiped off the map and "the evil West" completely withdrew from the Middle East? Come on now.
What is ridiculous is that you neither understand the notion nor want to understand it. You are so narrow-minded and defensive when it comes to Islam that you just don't see what is evident to most people in the world. Can you please stop with this "western hegemony" crap. I certainly didn't hegemonize anyone in any Muslim country - still, just a few weeks ago, a bomb planted by a Muslim fascist almost blew up under my ass on a German train. What exactly is this purported "western hegemony" you keep speaking of? I'll tell you what it is: It is propaganda used by Islamic fascist dictators to keep their population in check and to solidify their power. Hitler and other dictators around the world used the same tactic. Point at some external enemy that is supposedly responsible for all your troubles and it strengthens your dictatorship. Why do you promote this propaganda? Why would there have been 42 assassination attempts on Hitler by otherwise peaceful German citizens? Why would they have fought one of their "own people"? Because those "own people" were no good people - they were people who brought terror, hate and death to their own and the world. That's why the good German people fought "their own people", even when Germany was already under bomb attacks by the Allied forces. Those Germans who fought against the Nazis realized that the Nazis were the ones responsible for death and terror, not the American and British troops, which ultimately liberated Germany from Evil. The Muslim fascists are responsible for death and terror as well. And your biggest mistake is that you still think they are "your own people" whom you have to defend and you subscribe to their demagoguery Upstanding Muslims should fight those among themselves who bring death and terror to the world - not the rest of the world, which is merely reacting to said attacks.
Oh god. I was juxtaposing that with his comments regarding the state of Muslims today: "Islam/Arabs have been in steady decline for ages now, and as we all know, poverty and poor education leads to this kind of corruption." You're really grasping at straws. I've reiterated my stance ad nauseum. At this point, I don't have the patience to continue this exercise with you anymore. Believe what you want. No, if you're addressing the solutions to the problem, that discussion should include root causes. Are you not just answering your own questions and proving my point when you point to poverty? Like I've been trying to say all along, there are root causes to terrorism. It's not an issue of them doing it for Islamic reasons or simply for kicks as you implied earlier, and I think you yourself know that too, as your response just now indicated. Like I've said, you have to address root causes. Why do American Muslims or affluent Muslims not commit terrorism? We've seen only terrorism committed by people from countries gridlocked in some type of struggle or London, where Muslims live in the ghetto. I'm not saying this is the West's fault. I'm saying that there are political REASONS why terrorism is committed and it has very little to do with Islam, and I think if you asked yourself honestly, you would agree with me. I wholeheartedly disagree. BTW, thanks for actually taking the time to reply to my post for once. A reformation will come on its own when the seeds themselves are in place. It's not logical to expect a reformation in reaction to extremism when the political conditions for extremism are prevalent. It doesn't work that way. Look at Islamic history. Look at any history. Extremism results in reaction to some outside factor. Your statement that you're "glad can't strap a bomb onto [myself] to silence you" is really uncalled for but I've come to expect nothing less from you. My point was that the only other solution is to eradicate Islam. You have yet to give any viable solutions. You're wrong. When I say that Islam is as strong as ever, I mean that there is no indication of the religion dying out. If anything, there has been a scholarly revival in the past decade. The conversion rate is also as strong as ever. Pray tell how the fighting in Kashmir is "in the name of Islam." Just because Muslims are fighting doesn't mean it's in the "name of Islam."
I love how moderate muslims like to "denounce" these terrorist acts done by extremists who "aren't really muslims" and that "are really the west's fault and problem" to deal with. Moderate Muslims are a useless ally. They let extremists hijack their religion and don't see the direction it's all heading. Rather then take responsibility and place a positive role, they'd rather point fingers and just do nothing. What a disappointment.
I agree. Not sure thacabbage is an example of that, though. Can one still call him a "moderate" Muslim?
I don't see MASSIVE rallies against the terrorists in the Muslim world, particularly the Middle East. Heck, I don't even see them in the USA, or Great Britain...show the rest of the world that the Muslim religion is about peace. Of course they rally against some silly Cartoons, but not against murderers and hijackers... DD
Incredible. Did it ever occur to you that you don't see these rallies because, uhhh, the media doesn't show them to you? Who are these extremist dictators you are talking about that do anything? Other than the leader of Syria maybe, I don't see how there's anyone out here worse than a leader in Cuba, North Korea or Israel. DaDa, I'd just like to point out that I find it extremely inappropriate, insulting and disrespectful the way you use "fundamentalist" rather than "extremist". Perhaps you didnt realize the effect of the word. As for placing the wrong people at the helm of a country, I find it ironic that an American would say that considering the unbelievable opposition to your own president's actions regarding waging wars. Killing innocent people is wrong in Islam, and you guys are missing that point repeatedly. Take note of it. Now whether we have the power to weed out Hammas and Bin Laden or whoever, that's a different story altogether. Perhaps if a country like Palestine wasn't anihilated by Israel, they would have the resources to control and/or remove hammas. Yes, that same Israel which your country is providing weapons to. Islam has never been more widespread than it is right now. But Arabs continue in their downward spiral since God knows when. Muslims are responsible for Muslims. We are not responsible for the actions of maniacs who blow people up. That is a problem for the WORLD. That is maniac vs. humanity. Now, Arabs will do their best. But their hands are tied. They have no military might. They have no power in the media. We need everyone's help. We don't need people sitting around pointing fingers at us and telling us these people are using our name. What we need to do is seperate terrorists from Muslims and remove them together. Oh and when I say terrorists I mean terrorists. There's way bigger things to worry about than ripping a country apart for its oil. Like suicide bombings and hijacked planes.
Yeah, good way to describe your moronic post. Then point to some evidence of them taking place. Point to some evidence that outshines embassies being attacked in Muslim countries. Nice try, throwing Israel in there. Does the name Ahmadinedjad ring a bell? Yeah, get back to us when you can muster the energy to find it extremely inappropriate, insulting and disrespectful that people get blown up in buses, that planes get flown into buildings, that embassies of other countries are attacked and that bombs are planted on trains across Europe. All by Muslim fascists, fundamentalists, extremists, or whatever the heck you want to call these people. We are not missing that point. The fundamentalist, fascist, extremist or whatever you want to call them members of your religion are missing that point. Take note of that. Address your little speech to them, not to us. Right. The others (evil West, evil Israel) are solely responsible for all the problems of the Muslim world. But when it comes to the Muslim fascists/extremists/fundamentalists terrorizing the rest of the world, it's not a problem of the Muslim world - they are not responsible. Someone else take care of that. Ok. Yeah. Why don't you get started instead of trying to shift blame to "evil Israel" and the "evil West". Thank you for this insightful clarification. As I said, get started weeding the people out who do these things.
There is some truth in what you say, but there is also some truth in what DaDakota argues. Very disturbing... http://counterterror.typepad.com/the_counterterrorism_blog/2005/07/interview_with_.html
Cohen, That is EXACTLY what I am talking about.......the rulers of Islam need to start rooting out the radical fundamentalists inside their religion. DD
But where do these terrorists come from? They come from the fundamentalists who preach hate to the west! Where is the moderates preaching tolerance and countering the fundamentalists...where are Muslims trying to bring their people into the modern era. Give us times and dates, names...and whatever it is, it's weak. Moderates have lost, the extremists and fundamentalists have won. Islam is becoming a radical culture - not just a force for violence - but one of intolerance and woman subjagation, one of anti-modernization, and one of hate. This is what Islam is becoming. Who will stop it? Not moderate Muslims. The west can not do this - it must be their own battle....and it's not happening.
Sadly, it does appear that Islamic Radicalism is the new Nazi of the 21st century. Moderate Muslims are like the passive German citizens. You have all the same ingredients you had in 1930's Germany. It's scary. I fear that more extreme steps may be required to counter this growing threat as it is beginning to appear too late for extending the hand of peace. Unless moderate Muslims start making some noise, I fear they will have to choose sides and it won't be pretty.
The thing is that it desensitizes the rest of the world towards Muslims, and makes it far easier for Bush etc, to continue his campaign against the Radical Muslim world. If the Moderates do not step up, the rest of the world will, and it holds most of the guns. And that will lead to tons of unecessary suffering. Although I hope we don't go for a military solution. DD
Ugh. Now we're Nazis? lol. As I said. It's not the Muslims' job to remove the maniacs. It's everyone's job to stop maniacs from doing all this stuff like suicide bombings and hijacking planes. I don't have to be Christian to remove a fundamentalist priest from a church for abusing little boys. The Christian faith is not responsible for their actions. They are not being "Christian". It is not tied to Christianity. Therefore, everyone in the country, all religions, proceeded with removing those people. No, I'm not saying its comparable. It's much worse in the Middle East. Which is more reason for everyone else to complete their duty - removing these criminals from society.
Exactly, like the Mullahs in Iran, and the rulling party in Syria, or the oppressive Royal regine in Saudi Arabia....right? DD
