@Salvy, will you address any of these and other points? You claimed that the folks against ICE operations are ruled by emotion, not logic, and that hating Trump is the reason why they oppose [ICE]. Yet when logic, facts, and data are presented to you, you're not going to address any of it? That tells me that you are ruled by emotion, not logic, and your attachment to Trump is why you can't oppose anything he does. Just be honest.
lol For reals the got a Latino in the Odyssey homer must have sailed to Puerto Rico breh @Tomstro @Scarface281
Only if they attack you at a subway in Chicago at 2am. Brehs craving a foot long meatball sub breh @pgabriel
I've been critical of Trump on nearly everything he has done this term, I don't believe he has done a single thing that I consider a true success so far. However because some of the decisions he has made have not resulted in undeniable successes does not mean that the decisions were poor but poorly handled. I have not once agreed with the way immigration is being handled, I think they have gone too far and what should have been a direct hit on criminals fleeing their countries and entering ours has turned into pointless persecution of many people who quite frankly don't deserve to be treated in an inhumane and cruel manner. However, I still think securing the border and having control of illegal immigrants in this country is necessary and a must. As for this case, taking the word of the very people on the verge of getting deported is not an option. A proper investigation must be made, I'm not in favor of the ice agent or the people involved on the other side. I truly do hope justice is made, when more facts come out I can better tell you how I feel. As of now, I highly doubt these men were just going to work when ICE agents intercepted them guns blazing and shooting at people in a residential area. If the victim used his car in any way to try and get away then its going to be very difficult to defend him.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond thoughtfully. It is a lot more productive than the usual back-and-forth where people just throw insults instead of engaging. That said, I think you are staying at a high level and not addressing the points I raised. My argument is about this one incident and ICE's patterns and credibility. You didn't address ICE’s repeated history of lying, both publicly and in court, which is why I (nor anyone should) do not give them the benefit of the doubt anymore. You also did not address how a normal person would react when being chased or boxed in by an unmarked vehicle. That context matters when judging what happened. There is also a pattern in how these encounters are set up. ICE has a documented history of using unmarked vehicles to box people in, then treating any attempt to escape as justification for force. If you know people will panic when chased by an unidentified car, that is not a neutral situation. More like a setup. On top of that, the lack of body cam footage is not a small detail. ICE resisted using body cams until a judge forced the issue, and even now they are not consistently used, despite massive funding. That makes it much harder to independently verify their version of events, especially given their credibility issues. There is also a pattern in how these situations are handled after the fact. In this case, the 3 men who were in the vehicle, the only people who could directly confirm or contradict ICE’s version of events, were detained. They were reportedly pressured to sign self-deportation orders and initially did not have legal representation. That is not a neutral setup for getting to the truth. I understand your point about not automatically trusting the people involved, especially if they are facing deportation (which should also apply to ICE officers involved especially given their dcoumented history of lying). That is fair. But that is exactly why their testimony needs to be properly investigated, not dismissed or sidelined, which ICE has done in the past. Their account directly contradicts ICE’s version of events, which makes it critical evidence, not something that can be ignored. Now that they have legal counsel, they are directly disputing ICE’s account. According to their lawyer, they say the driver did not use the vehicle as a weapon and no agent was in the line of danger. That directly conflicts with ICE’s narrative. So when you say we need an investigation and more facts, I agree. But there is no real path to a fair or independent investigation here. The federal gov is effectively investigating itself, and in past ICE incidents they have blocked or limited outside scrutiny, including restricting access to evidence and local law enforcement. That pattern makes it very unlikely we will get the kind of independent, reliable investigation you are hoping for. DHS investigating itself, especially with its track record, is not trustworthy. We can get into your other points (immigration overall, poorly handled vs poor decisions, etcs) separately, but I want to keep this focused here for now.
Every Witness to ICE Killing in Houston Says the Same Thing: ICE Lied The three men in Lorenzo Salgado Araujo’s vehicle were interviewed separately. They all said ICE’s version of events isn’t true. BRANDON BELL/GETTY IMAGES A candlelight vigil at the site where Lorenzo Salgado Araujo was killed in Houston on July 8. The men who were in Lorenzo Salgado Araujo’s vehicle when an Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent shot and killed him on Tuesday say he did not try ram the immigration agents’ unmarked car—directly contradicting ICE’s version of events. The agents stated that Salgado Araujo, a Mexican immigrant and father of three who was on his way to work, had ignored their verbal commands, “weaponized his vehicle,” and tried to run over one of them. The agent shot him and claimed self-defense. “That is a lie,” Jose Trinidad Rojas, 51, said in a handwritten statement offered to The Washington Post by his lawyer, Hugo Balderas-Ibarra. “It is impossible for them to say that they were going to get run over.... There were no officers in front of or behind the vehicle. They were on the sides.... Lorenzo thought we had lost them but suddenly they surrounded us.” Balderas-Ibarra said he spoke to Rojas and the two other passengers—Daniel Tirado Pantoja and Victor Salgado, Salgado Araujo’s brother—separately, and each stated that ICE lied about Salgado Araujo’s violent intent. Victor also said that agents began firing from their vehicle’s passenger side, striking his brother in the abdomen and then mocking him while he bled out, saying, “You wanted to escape, right?” All four men in the car had been in the United States for at least two decades. They were arrested and taken into custody shortly after the shooting. Not only do these witnesses say ICE is lying, the footage of the incident suggests they were too. Video obtained by local outlet KHOU 11 shows the agents tried to box Salgado Araujo’s car in with their unmarked black SUV, initiating the conflict. When Salgado Araujo made a U-turn and fled in the other direction, the agents (who could have been anyone to him, as they were in an unmarked vehicle) followed him. Even worse, The New York Timesreported that Salgado Araujo wasn’t even the intended target—they were hunting two immigrants from Guatemala. Now Salgado Araujo is dead for no reason. He is the tenth person to be fatally shot by federal immigration agents since President Trump returned to office. https://newrepublic.com/post/212940/witnesses-arrested-texas-ice-killing-say-ice-lying
