Amen Thompson is the Rockets' REAL franchise player

All statistics are made up numbers. It’s just a matter of how they were derived and how long they have been in use. If you can’t admit that ‘traditional’ metrics like PPG and 3P% (the two you keep citing) are limited ways to look at the value of a player, then there really is no point discussing.

WS and WS/48 correlate extraordinarily well with ‘eyeball test’ ways of evaluating players - MVPs, All-Stars, All-NBA, etc. - but without a fan vote or ‘storyline’ bias. Just look at the list. Either you believe Amen is strangely the only outlier the statistic loves incorrectly, or Amen’s impact is actually among the top in the league. If it’s the former, you need to do better than just an AI generated ad-hominem attack on the creator of the metric or a ‘I prefer 3P% and PPG as the only things that matter’.

Why does WS get everyone else ‘right’ but Amen ‘wrong’?

 

Good post. In addition, win shares values defense very well, much better than any box stats or eye test can do.

 

All I know is that if we were to trade Amen, we'd be able to bring back more than a max salary. There are at least 10 max salary players that would happily be traded by their teams to Houston if Amen was in the deal. Doesn't mean he is a superstar yet, but he's a max and still has gobs of potential for improvement.

 

Ok, show me the metric which accurately portrays the best scorers in league history compared to PPG? Show the list and compare it, i'll wait.

 

You didn’t respond to his very salient points or his questions.

 

It's a nonsense made up estimate comparing against a fictional replacement player. Just because Morey and co think it's great doesn't change that fact. It's an estimate, not a statistic.

 

I don't need to, estimates literally are not statistics or facts.

 

No, you just can’t.

Why does WS get everyone else right but Amen wrong? Because you underrate Amen.

 

Using your logic, Luka and Brunson are better players than prime Kawhi or Tim Duncan.

 

stop wasting your time that guys a die hard Jalen Green fan

he actually just recently dragged Amen down to Jalen Green's level on this thread

 

The peleincubus stat shows that Amen >>>>> Sengun.

 

Win Shares is basically “who played a lot, scored efficiently, and was on a good team,” so it tends to line up with MVP voting and the typical eye test.

I prefer EPM. It tries to isolate true on-court impact, which is why it often elevates less flashy players—particularly defensive and off-ball contributors—that can be missed when you’re primarily watching the ball. That’s also why the two stats tend to agree at the top but diverge more as you move down the player pool. A lot of people don’t like that EPM can rate high-level role players above high-volume scorers on average or worse teams.

On PPG, I don't think Jamal Murray is better than Wemby. PPG just is a useless stat unless used in conjucntion with stats that also look at efficiency, play creation, and defense.

 

Has the same level of validity as made up estimates about fantasy fictional "replacement players." Sounds good.

 

1. No, all statistics are not "made up numbers" all actual statistics are factual, recorded numbers. All METRICS are made up numbers and estimates. Learn the difference.
2. If WS and WS/48 are accurate put up the all time numbers and clearly show that the top 5 are the top 5 greatest players? PPG is easily the most accurate statistic to show the best scorers in league history - real statistics, not estimates.
3.You don't understand what "ad hominem" means, it's not applicable here, I made no personal attacks against anybody or said anything that wasn;t true - made up "metrics" are literally just estimates based on convoluted "algorithms" that are not objective in any way. They are simply manipulating the true numbers, comparing them to estimates or non-existent "replacement players" and fooling all the people who don't understand the difference between "estimate" and "statistics" (that's you btw.)

There you go, for the person who was b****ing that I didn't answer the questions.

PPG all time:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Luka Doncic
4. Joel Embiid
5. Elgin Baylor

Show me the metric which shows a better list of scorers? I'm STILL ****ING WAITING.

 

PPG is a calculation just like WS. Nobody is “recording” points per game—you take total points and divide by games played. That’s already a derived stat.

Win Shares does the same thing, just with more inputs. Both come from things that actually happened.

From Wikipedia:

“A statistic (singular) or sample statistic is any quantity computed from values in a sample which is considered for a statistical purpose. Statistical purposes include estimating a population parameter, describing a sample, or evaluating a hypothesis. ”

So yeah—WS is a stat. You can argue it’s a worse stat if you want, but saying it’s not a stat at all doesn’t really hold up.

 

Where in PPG is the estimate or the fictional player? You're trying to compare basic math to convoluted subjective algorithms where the creator applies an arbitrary self-defined "weighting" system to the things they're trying to prove. Try again.

 

To put it VERY bluntly:

Statistics/Factual numbers = Objective
Metrics based on estimates, "replacement players," or weighted algorithms where the data is completely manipulated by arbitrary choices of the metric-creator - completely subjective, and biased as ****.

Not that difficult to understand, or maybe it is for those who suckled the Morey teet... looks that way tbh.

 

It’s a statistical metric you should adhere to as I am simply a smarter individual than you.

 

1. Nobody was b****ing, my guy. No need to get so huffy.
2. In point of fact, you still didn’t answer his question.