Fred VanVleet Extension

lets not compare a rockets team that made the playoffs and underperformed to one of the most important works of art ever.

this is more like a college student making his first meal, lets say chicken, rice and broccoli. Stone bought the meat, the rice and the broccoli. Silas threw everything in the proper cooking apparatus. With Silas, everything was undercooked and unseasoned. Ime came in and threw stuff back on the grill etc, but he also added some salt and pepper, nothing too interesting, still a bland piece of meat. FVV was just a pinch too much salt and the chicken is now ****ed. Sadly Ime loves salty food so we all have to be served over salted meat.

KD came in and was a new spice, lets say cumin. He added some flavor but FVVs salty element could not be overcome.

 

I saw you trying to argue this team isnt a top tier team based on playoff success which hasnt even happened yet.

Right now based on their record and their team rankings Rockets are a top tier team. Do you agree yes or no?

 

While they are "one of the best teams in the league" there is also a very wide gap between them and the top teams.

They are "the best of the rest".

A healthy Denver, San Antonio and OKC are significantly better - Cleveland may have made a leap adding Harden.
They are now tied with the Lakers for the 4/5 spot .... Minnesota may be better.

 

Anyone have any intel on if FVV will come back to the playoffs? Almost feel like Rockets insiders feel like it’s probable.

 

I got word from a random source that they heard from an insider that they are targeting a Feb return date for FVV. So it's championship, here we come.

 

That's exactly my point. You'd have to give Da Vinci credit for creating something that was worth discussing. If you feel Stone ruined the Rockets, it must be because he created something that was worth ruining.

You seem to have recency bias. They have clearly under-performed this season, granted.

If you zoom out, the Rockets are in good position for the foreseeable future. Stone has said all along he is playing the long game. As a whole, the upward trajectory is apparent. This season, they had a plan and it didn't go to plan. You win some and lose some. Would I like to see more tweaks? Sure. But has it been a failure? No.

 

It's not a comparison, it's an analogy.

If you accuse Stone of ruining the team, then you must simultaneously give him credit for building said team. Said another way, if Stone inherited a lottery bound team and the team remained a lottery bound team, would you accuse him of ruining the team?
Fact is, Stone has built a competitive team that looks to remain so for years to come.

The biggest question I have about this team is I feel is this summer they come to a crossroad. They acquired and built all these valuable assets, many of which looks to be great but has yet to develop into a top 5 player.

Option A: Do you stay the course and remain competitive for the next 10 years? Maybe one or two of the players develops into being a top 5 player and you are a contender for a decade.
Option B: Do you cash in all your chips this summer and go get a player like Giannis? Now you can make a tittle run in the next 1-3 years, but that assures that your championship window closes thereafter.

Stone said he's going with Option A. If you have a crystal ball, let me know how that works out.

 

Been a month or so, but heard it was more a hope he returns than an expectation he returns for the playoffs.

 

I expect Stone to operate between Options A and B. I don't expect an all-in move unless it fits really well. I don't think Giannis warrants an all-in move at this point. The Bucks have been burning through his prime value. If the Rockets get Giannis, they will still have assets left (either a ton of young players, or a ton of picks).

Stone has repeatedly said he's open. Option A or something close to it is the default. Stone has repeatedly made the roster flexible for the Rockets to trade to get better, but it takes other teams to do anything but Option A.

 

I'm not saying Giannis is Option B, just using him as an example. If an ANT or Jokic come free, you make a run at them. Until then, you remain flexible and keep developing your team to remain competitive. Who knows, maybe they catch fire like the old Pistons.

Most teams win because they have the best player on the court with the best surrounding cast. Unfortunately for the Rockets, cause they got unlucky in the draft, it doesn't look like they'll ever have the best player on the court anytime soon.

Maybe if FVV gets back and plays better than last season, maybe KD can be that guy.

 

This is the big crux of the matter. The Rockets are better than every team in which the Rockets have the best player. The Rockets are better than most teams that have a better player than themselves.

 

There's a difference between the best player and the most important player. I suspect that Stone/Udoka subconsciously conflate the two and hang all of their hope on FVV. When he went down, it's "just not our year." The thinking seems to be: We are missing our best player. When he comes back, we'll be great again. They are essentially thinking like FVV is our franchise player.

FVV is clearly not our best player. He would have been signed to a maximum contract if he was. He might be the most important player because he provides some of the most important things that make this team succeed, namely POA defense and organizing a low turnover offense. He's not the only player in the league who can do that. He's not even one of the best. He's just the guy who happened to be available to us.

At this point, we don't have someone on our roster that can provide BOTH of those two things at the same time. So I can understand why losing him has a big negative impact. There are a few ways that could address the problem.

1. Find someone who can do he same or better than FVV. Since Fred is not a max level star, it should be much easier to find one than to find a franchise level player.

2. Change the way we play to adjust to the FVV-less rotation. It appears that we are doing this. BUT so far it looks more like we are playing the same way, just replacing him on offense with Durant, and on defense with Amen/Okogie/Tari. The problem with using Amen or Tari for Fred's role on defense is that it takes those guys away from their natural role which is defending the wing. And Okogie is a negative on offense. And we all see how it goes using Durant to organize our offense.

3. What the Rockets are actually doing is hoping either Amen or Reed or both can take FVV's role. So far it's not as successful as we hoped. Both guys have their respective glaring flaws.

 

February would be crazy fast. I don't know if I buy it. But I will say that I saw an interview from a few weeks back where he said he is running and shooting and felt he'd be able to jump soon. So, who knows at this point.

 

There have been multiple injuries, some big and some small. Even the small ones, such as to Tari, they just can't seem to catch a break of a good stretch with all their top players. I don't read his quote to be dependent upon FVV.

I agree. That said, the plan wasn't to install either of them as the starting PG this season. The hope was they could bring them along another season or two, hence why the extended FVV.

Many of us wondered why they got Capela when they clearly needed another PG. That was a valid question and still is. I"m guessing the logic was if they lost FVV during the season, that Amen and/or Reed to hold court longer than relying on Jabari playing big minutes as a backup 5. I think that is solid logic and proved to be correct. What they didn't plan on was losing FVV during pre-season AND losing Adams. Both of those guys are more than just dudes eating up minutes in the rotation. For better or worse, both guys are heart/soul guys on the team.

Could they have made a trade deadline move for another PG? Maybe. Would that player moved the needle and pushed you past OKC or even SA?

Could the Texans have won if Nico didn't get hurt?

It's sports. Sometimes it just is what it is. The Rockets have said they are playing the long game so making a move on the edges isn't worth the risk.

Maybe FVV comes back and the Rockets can move Amen back to the dunker's spot and we don't need KD bringing the ball up the court any more. Then Amen can get back to focusing more on defense and KD stops having stupid turnovers. All FVV needs to do is bring the ball up the court without turnovers and hit open 3s. The Rockets don't need FVV to create shots, like he did last season.

 

I hope this isn't a Lindsey Vonn thing: "I can do it. YES I CA.......aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuughhh!"

"Come on, Fred. Whaddaya say?!"

 

If we get this man more than 15 million this summer, this is a complete joke.

 

Show me a team that has not lost a key player or two for stretches. The Rockets are no more unlucky than any other teams. If the FO does not prepare for such contingencies, or take remedial actions to mitigate the losses, then it's on them.

I am not saying that they have to be successful. There are obviously many factors not in their control. But to blame circumstances for their failure is not a good look.

Before the season started, Stone explained why they were not adding guard depth by saying that there's no difference between guards and wings. That, even before FVV's injury, sounded like a weird excuse. If he really believed that, he's plain ignorant.

 

Yea, I can't dispute anything you said.

I never understood adding both DFS and Okogie when you already had Amen, Tari, and Bari. You just can't play all 5 of those guys meaningful minutes. The only dude out of that bunch that can handle the ball is Amen, and he was unproven. The DFS signing was a mistake.

Yea, every team has injuries. All I'm saying is the identity of this team was so integral with FVV and Adams that losing both of those two guys is particularly unfortunate on THIS team of youngsters. Last season, losing Tari was bad but losing Adams is worse. Not having a suitable backup to FVV was a mistake. That is on Stone.

 

The Rockets needed DFS and FVV (or Reed to blossom or both FVV and him) to have a decent chance to win. The Rockets basically have 3 guys that can play defense and shoot threes (at least decent volume and efficiency). FVV and DFS would have brought that to 5. Right now, Tari, JSJ, and Durant do not have a good option as a backup, and the Rockets have struggled all year when not playing 1 or 2 centers.

DFS or another 3 and D forward was needed. People can say Stone needed to make contingencies, but he only had the NT-MLE and Bird rights to work with. He used every resource without robbing from long-term draft capital (except 1 FRP for Durant and SRPs) on a player/position the Rockets needed.

The roster was never going to be perfect and needed some luck. The Rockets did not get lucky.

 

Yes, they needed luck and they got exactly opposite of luck.

Assumption #1: FVV will be the primary PG.
Assumption #2: Amen/Reed will be adequate backup PGs.
Assumption #3: 3&D players are versatile, especially in a switch everything defense, so anybody else can walk the ball down the court in a pinch.

The house of cards fell down once assumption #1 fell. In hindsight, they should have addressed assumption #2 and gotten a capable backup PG rather than DFS (assumption #3).

Signing DFS seemed like a good idea at the time and the Capella signing seemed odd. In a strange twist of fate, exactly opposite was true. Thank goodness they got Capella.