Trae Young and Porzingus start when healthy on the Hawks instead of the Rockets and OKC. I don't think Dyson is as good at POA as Caruso and Amen, but he's not close to Reed either at the POA.
Again, ANY elite defensive player will help the teams defense, that's how the sport works. You can have random small sample size variance, but that's not the case here. Same way ANY elite offensive player will improve a teams offense, it's just impossible not to. Daniels is not a good defender, it just it what it is.
It's an unintentional trick question. You only consider them elite defenders if the numbers directly state it. So how would you know they're an elite defender in a bad circumstance if the numbers are suffocated for elite defenders in a bad circumstance?
... It is just so weird that the Hawks defense has been better with Dyson than without since Porzingus has been out. It is almost like playing 1 good defender with 4 average or worse defenders is not as good as a bench with 3-4 decent defenders. Also, why are you saying Durant, Amen, and Sengun are the biggest sucks that have ever sucked at offense?
It's like the opposite of those true glue guy defenders who don't get blocks or steals but just by being there either make people shoot worse or just make the team defend better. I actually think we've been lucky to have a few of those guys across the history. They may not win as many awards, but very valuable. I'm not sure how wise big gambles in the hope of steals is as an approach to playoff basketball.
He was able to get to the 3 SPG mark which became a story and got him a reputation. If he averaged 2.5 instead of 3 last season nobody would have looked twice at him, nobody would have had him top 10 in dpoy or any of that. It’s an irrelevant argument, it doesn’t matter if some people think he’s good even if he’s not. It’s just funny that a guy who doesn’t help a teams defense can be 2nd in dpoy voting because he had 1 cool stat.
That is your argument as the Rockets are "worse" with Durant on offense than without. As Dyson is the biggest suck that ever sucked for his defense not "helping" the Hawks in your opinion, and you said it is the same for offensive players....it is natural to assume you think Durant sucks offensively. Granted, the other Rockets and opponents matter in Durant's stats just as the Hawks starting a bunch of defensive liabilities affects Dyson's stats. Oddly, the Hawks defense has been dramatically better as the defensive liabilities have been hurt getting them out of the lineup and better defender off the bench and starting.
I try not to engage with this kinda trolling but durant has had a positive (most years very very high) offensive on/off for the last 15 years. This year he's only a -1.2 and is also very very old and a shell of what he used to be. There is no indicator for daniels that he has a real positive impact on defense. He's not killing the defense, generally roughly even or slightly worse with him. Daniels is also not a horrible defender, he's just not good. If you look at Amen, rockets have been better all 3 of his seasons when he plays. If you look at caruso, his teams have been better all 9 of his seasons. Like i said, there will always be noise (shooting luck, teammates, etc.) in small sample sizes but any great defender will have a statistical indicator showing that, it would be impossible not to short of having a wemby be your backup or something.
Yes I do think he got too much hype for his steals. But I was asking, in the way you analyze players how would you know they're an elite defender in a bad circumstance if the numbers are suffocated for elite defenders in a bad circumstance?
Can the Rockets trade Durant for Giannis with the Bucks sending Durant to a 3rd team like Detroit or Cleveland or something
An elite defender in a bad circumstance will still help the team. You would have to do something deliberate to have that not happen over a large sample, like if you put a solid defensive center on the spurs, started him, and then had wemby come off the bench to destroy the starters stats. I'm not saying he's mediocre just because of the on/off, my point is he's a mediocre on ball defender which is backed up by the stats. Kawhi in 16-17 had a really wild defensive on/off where the spurs were 8.4 better on defense when he sat (from my memory there was insane 3 pt luck to cause that) even though he was obviously a great defender. If you look at the years around that one, spurs were way better with him on the court. I also don't think the numbers are suffocated for elite defenders in a bad circumstance. I think if you put caruso, amen, the actual elite guys on any of the 30 teams that team will be better on defense with those guys on the court. Also, this applies only to perimeter defenders which is why it's completely idiotic they are ever considered for DPOY. There would NEVER EVER be a situation where the spurs would be worse with wemby, or okc with chet, or minni with rudy, or warriors with green.
Haha no dude, but you answered my question by not answering the question. You define elite only by whether the number is high or low - therefore you believe watching film and games and doing scenario analysis is pointless or insignificant. At the end of the day, the number is the number to you. No GM or coach sees the game that way, we've discussed that before. You're more extreme than Morey, Presti and Hinkie in that way (well, except early career Morey who learned the hard way). You won't have to debate with the people you're debating if you just say that openly at the start. "Oh, btw, I don't believe in any analysis, if the number says it's negative then it's bad overall despite what any professional or non-professional thinks." Then you'll get people saying "Oh, well if that's how you see it, it makes sense that you're flabbergasted by any instance where the analysis doesn't perfectly correlate with the numbers." Then you don't have to throw your arms up and wonder what's going on. Not saying you should change the way you do things, but just shedding light on why sometimes you feel people just don't get it. I've been there.
Man, we've seen the numbers and we know that the numbers show Hawks players who have a better on/off than Daniels who there's no way in hell are better defenders than Daniels. I think it's just a pretty clear cut case of - for better or worse - you put way more stock in the number than most people involved in or fans of basketball do. Which is ok but you haven't made a case for it so I was just showing you why obviously you're going to run into "wtf?" situations. It's too big a flaw for you to ignore and not justify, so the credibility is lacking. So exchange is not possible. All 30 GM's voted this summer on who's the best perimeter defender and they voted for Daniels. I don't agree with that (I think it's Amen) but I can't now say he's not an amazing perimeter defender lol. The other 4 defenders they voted are Amen, Ausar, Jrue and Dort. So they're not all over the place like on/off numbers, there's a clear understanding of excellent perimeter defense in general unlike the on/off formula. That's a gargantuan data point compared to the commonly erratic on/off numbers. Do you think those GM's haven't seen the numbers you're talking about? Anyways just challenging your analysis. No offense intended.
I don’t think they take it remotely seriously, he placed highest in dpoy among wings so they voted for him, nothing more. Like i said before, if he had averaged 2.7 steals instead of 3.0 nobody would have looked twice at him. I also gave you the one real wtf scenario i know of (i’m sure there’s plenty, that’s just the famous one), the crazy kawhi season, that’s why you need a big sample. I think people VASTLY overestimate how much work people who vote for stuff put into it beyond following trends/narratives. Marcus smart won a dpoy, jeter won gold gloves, rose won an mvp, there’s tons of examples.
Oh maybe that's where your confusion lies dude. It's the media that votes DPOY so I'm not taking that seriously. When I'm mentioning the 30 GM's I'm talking about the GM survey where all 30 GM's voted that these are the 5 best perimeter defenders in the NBA (Twins, Holiday, Daniels, Dort). The previous season they chose Holiday, Dort, Caruso, Herb Jones, Derrick White, OG, McDaniels. They clearly know what they're talking about. If you're saying that 30 GM's were swayed by the media and don't know the numbers you're talking about, I would say it's time to put down the stat pipe. You've jumped the shark if that's the case.
