What is efficient about BTC? It takes a lot of energy to mine and transact? ~90 terawatts of energy. What about the water needed to cool the machines? It gets a bit murkier there, but still it doesn't seem insignificant. AI data centers (which do something useful) also provide a market incentive for the grid to grow and stabilize without public funds. Which begs the question..... will the market prefer to use that electricity and water on data centers or digitally mining? Electricity costs are increasing and people are talking.....
Is anyone worried that BTC will be legislated back over the increasing need for electricity and water for data centers?
Join the party! Just having a discussion. I actually enjoy talking to the true believers. Folks just trying to make a quick buck are easy to figure out... but the zealots are interesting.
seems he made a lot of money... anywahoo, better you just go atheist imo as agnosticism is getting you nowhere
Has he sold? That’s the only way you actually make money…. I don’t put money into things I don’t believe in which has made me a lot of money and generated a lot of good sleep at night. Like I said, I like engaging with the true believers. No hate for those looking to make money but it’s goes further for the true believers
I've not sold any Bitcoin since late 2020/early 2021 when I bought my house. A decision I regret. I have taken out loans against my Bitcoin and Bitcoin related assets, though. Has been a great help paying for larger expenses. I have also taken out personal loans to buy Bitcoin, that I still happily hold and service. Nothing super crazy, just what I can afford to carry. This is not surprising. You speak like somebody who has no need for Bitcoin. Good thing too, because your hubris vis-a-vis Bitcoin has cost you an absolutely galactic amount of earning potential. This is ironic because you should be way more critical of people trying to flip a quick buck in this world.
I sleep fine knowing about all the moves I didn't make. As you just demonstrated..... you only make money when you sell. I just find it interesting how committed you true believers are to the concept of BTC which feels more ideological. I've been plenty critical of folks trying to flip a quick buck but this is the BTC thread.
again, what are you talking about? yes, bitcoin is very ideological? What is your point? The current monetary system is broken. your comments keep getting dumber and its very clear you are not putting forth the effort to listen. Bitcoiners are holding bitcoin, not selling. So please explain to me how that is ‘flipping for a quick buck’? You have this schtick on these forums where you try to make arguments but inside you think you are trolling. It might work in the D&D however its very clear you know very little about what you are talking about, even to the point where your trolling looks r****ded. You have a very similar posting style to astros123
There's a handful of gadflies who poke their head into this thread every time the price dips because they suddenly feel emboldened/righteous by a temporary pull back. They argue in bad faith with their mouths far too open and their ears far too shut. I don't respond to them in hopes of converting them. That's fruitless labor. My responses are directed at the randoms and lurkers who are actually listening and learning.
What is confusing....? Are you not able to follow a message board conversation? Which is why I like having these discussions..... As a very vocal Elon-stan ..... You do understand his "innovations" wouldn't be possible without the "current monetary system" that allows flexibility. The irony is probably lost on you..... Everything has pros and cons. Nope. I got buddies who treat BTC like a speculative asset to make money. Not everyone is a true believer like you and @DonnyMost .... Not sure why you would assume that? Plenty of folks on this thread are treating BTC like MSFT. So far none of you can explain why all this energy and water is actually worthwhile, aside from making you richer. Like why is a rigid monetary system a good thing?
Its like you're almost there, you almost get it. The basic fundamentals of the modern monetary system is based on gold. Through the last couple millennia's, modern societies used gold as one of its primary basis. And the global gold supply in circulation has been calculated around 3% increase year over year, decade over decade, for hundreds of years. Thus how we come up with the magical 3% inflation rate. Bitcoin has a fixed supply - 21 million Bitcoins. There is no inflation rate. So yes, a fixed supply (bitcoin) vs an inflationary supply (USD or any other fiat) will always go up, including against gold. In this context, I am not sure what physics has to do with anything. It is absolutely an idea at this point, that is until someone comes up with a big brain formula to explain the global monetary system. Arguing whether Bitcoin or any other similar system will be widely adopted is a different discussion. Since you're the smartest guy in the room, you should come up with your own system.
What you are referring to is a debt based system (fiat) that allows for capital expansion utilizing different lending instruments. Again, a completely different discussion. When I state the money system is broke, I am referring to thousands of years of governments debasing money supplies and robbing people of their savings. There is no place where someone can place their money and forget about it for 30 years, come back and find it worth the same as the day they put it into savings. I have no problem with people who use Bitcoin as a speculative asset. If you have a problem with your friends who speculate on Bitcoin, you should be having this discussion with them .... or just find dumber friends. idk what to tell you. I have bitcoin because: 1) I believe it will continue to be adopted, not abandoned 2) I trust the technology and the governance system of bitcoin. I don't need to explain its energy consumption anymore than I expect people to explain how they spend their energy. What YOU need to explain is why YOU think YOU have the authority to tell someone how they spend their money or how energy should be used. Because whatever nonsensical response you come up with, I will use it on you. Why do you spend thousands on powering your HVAC? You dont need AC or heat. If you think you have the right to question my energy usage, then I have the right to cut your power off. This is really one of the dumbest retorts of them all.
And what about that pesky demand? It is supply and demand, no? What happens when demand picks up or slackens in a fixed system? Because what @DonnyMost was describing is a perpetual motion machine which I find interesting because that is often a metaphor used to describe BTC.... Google- Is Bitcoin A Perpetual Motion Machine
Not really. A system based on fixed supply would not be producing EV cars at a rapid pace or creating a large network of satellites. Have you considered without economic growth (inflation) there would be no savings? I've been pretty consistent that I have no problem with people speculating on BTC. That is how I view it. Also been pretty consistent that I like discussing the meaning of money and systems. This is purely an embarrassing deflection as I have never claimed I have the authority to tell people how to spend their money or energy. I am merely pointing out the vast energy and water needed to dig digital holes and fill with digital dirt. I'm sorry that triggers you.... Electricity and water are finite (especially with our current technology level). Seems like we could just shut down all the BTC mining in the US to lower electricity costs for consumers as these AI data centers roll out. Are you worried that because BTC is so terribly inefficient that some hard political decisions will need to be made? BTC or AI? Can't just make nat gas plants or nuclear plants appear.
Why do you keep saying this? Bitcoin is based on energy. Raw, actual, measurable, tangible energy. There is no magic, smoke, mirrors, or voodoo. No one has said otherwise, certainly not me. You need to explain yourself here. Nobody is following your line of thinking. Nobody can trace back hardly anything you say to something someone else has told you. Fixed supply is not a concern with infinite divisibility. You have not been consistent on this. Hell, only a few posts ago you implied that participating in Bitcoin is some kind of wasteful moral failure. The only thing you've been consistent about is using the term "speculative" as some type of pejorative or insult towards the asset class and those who hold it. You're only okay with it insofar that speculators (by virtue of trading it and not holding it) agree with you that it isn't perfect money and the hardest asset. I've talked with you in this thread at length for 5-6 years now. Not once have I seen you even broach the topic of "what is money" and your curiosity about financial systems seems to start and stop with "inflation good". You don't like discussing the concept of money or monetary systems, you like ******** on people who do and that's about it. Nope. You very much cast judgment on those who participate in the Bitcoin network as being wasteful and that it negatively affects you. You have done/said this many times in this thread. Don't be surprised that when you ask someone to justify their behavior to you that they take you seriously. Please explain how Bitcoin is "inefficient"? If you know of a more efficient way to securely run an incorruptible monetary network for the entire world, please share it. Again, you continue to demand Bitcoin justify its existence to you. If having the best monetary technology isn't important to you (something you clearly do not care about, much to your own personal detriment), then nothing I say about Bitcoin presently constituted is going to change your mind. It's like trying to explain why reason is important to somebody who does not value reason. It's a flywheel of futility.
There are those who think the world can run on Bitcoin alone. I really dont know. All I know is that it will not happen in my life time. This is not my philosophy on money. I can not see a world w/out credit. Just like money, there are many abstract varieties of debt. If I help my neighbor in exchange for a promise to help me in the future, that is a form of debt. Debt will always exist. Credit will always exist. Fiat will always exist. Different monetary systems will always exist. As I stated, I hold Bitcoin because it can not be eroded by a 3rd party, only by supply and demand - The way it should be. We have a giant reactor in the center of our solar system. While electricity may not be infinite, as there is no such thing as infinite in practical terms, there is a massive abundance of energy. Harnessing the energy in a costly manner is a different story. The same with water. We have oceans full of water. There is also another term - Economies of scale. The cost per electron 100 years ago was massively more expensive than now. The more energy we use, the cost per electron goes down. There are massive deposits of stranded energy all over the globe that go unused due to demand. Further, Bitcoin chases the cheapest energy. As it was discussed earlier in this thread, when other sources (like data centers) are willing to pay more than bitcoin miners, then that demand will switch over from Bitcoin mining to whoever is willing to pay more. This trend is now happening in Texas. Bitcoin mining has been very positive for the Texas energy market. It front ran AI by investing into power generators and setting up energy hubs for AI to take over. Shutting down Bitcoin mining in the US is not going to all of sudden drop energy prices. Generators will simply scale back and become less profitable. The PNW has massive amounts of hydro power that sits idle due to the lack of demand capacity.
