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Ukraine

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

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    History.

    Logic.

    Common sense.
     
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  2. Andre0087

    Andre0087 Member

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    I'm not giving @basso the benefit of the doubt on any of those...
     
  3. basso

    basso Member
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    i was unaware Trump had proposed a particular course of action since last night's events.
     
  4. Andre0087

    Andre0087 Member

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    Probably be a solid idea to leave Twitter for a while, most of the misinformation you've posted here has already been deleted.
     
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  5. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Poland should do what Poland needs to do.

    Poland should not wait around for NATO to spend time trying to figure out what the best thing to do next is (or for NATO to do what Trump wants, maybe waiting two weeks for him to decide or not).
     
  6. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

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    Fine then. Let's take a bet. Will Trump

    -Take action (not just empty words) against Russia for provocation a military action on a NATO ally

    or

    -Make some sort of statement about not being happy about it, etc. etc. but essentially do nothing, and in the process talk about how great of a relationship he was with Vladamir???


    ....

    You trying to play this role where you act as though it's totally unpredictable what Trump's response will be is hilarious. Either you are just being a troll or you are a complete idiot who hasn't paid a lick of attention to anything Trump has done the past 12 years.
     
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  7. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

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    Poland really hasn't been waiting around. They've been Lockheed's #1 customer the past 2 years stockpiling and paying everything they can to get as many patriot missile systems in place as fast as possible. I know some of the goals they had were to have them in place as early as March when Trump took office, and they predicted Russia could start escalating over into Poland.

    So I know they have been preparing for this, and NATO aside I feel confident they are prepared for a fight. The way they've independently been stockpiling as well leads me to believe they know they might have to go it alone potentially as well if Trump is successful at breaking up NATO.
     
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  8. basso

    basso Member
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    what does Poland need to do?
     
  9. CrixusTheUndefeatedGaul

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    White girl is a refugee from Ukraine breh. You woke shiitheads always have that Ukrainian flag with your hashtags. Your favorite 13 percent just murdered her in cold blood and all we heard from your kind is just crickets.

    No matter how hard you try to appease to your favorite protected minority, no matter how loud and passionate you yell BLM, they will not hesitate to end your life just for the heck of it randomly. Just noticed that no 13 percent came to the aids of that dying white girl?

    Woke shiithead liberals are the dumbest species on this planet and hopefully the 13 percent will put an end to them. Ain’t that something?

    The damn fatigue is real. Call me racist all you want but the cat is out of the bag. People are tired of this shiit and they are speaking up now.
     
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  10. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

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    Now can Poland and Ukraine alone take on Russia.... probably not.. but it sure as hell wouldn't make the war any easier for Putin, and so far he's had pretty dismal results being one of the supposed military superpowers in the world who couldn't even take Kyiv, and only tactic he can take is terrorism of civilians like ISIS or Al Qaeda.

    But more than anything Poland entering the war, if that was to theoretically happen, changes one big thing.... it puts Patriot missiles back up in the air to render Putin's air attacks nothing more than an expensive firework show, delays any further results Putin could have in the short term, and gives more air support with Poland's fairly respectable while still relatively small air force.

    So one would have to think Putin knows this would not help him to have Poland even alone... enter the war more actively. So one has to think Putin believes Trump will cower and kiss his a$$ while putting more pressure on NATO and Ukraine to cave to Putin sooner rather than later.

    So if Putin obviously believes Trump is in his pocket, and a supplicant, I don't know why a random poster here on Clutchfans would think anything different.

    My theory is that Putin is provoking in this way to get Trump to bully Zelensky and NATO into agreeing to give over territory to Putin, and pave the way for Ukraine to be a vassal state of Russia in the near future.
     
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  11. basso

    basso Member
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  12. CrixusTheUndefeatedGaul

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    Your people just murdered that white girl in cold blood, any thoughts breh? Tell us how you really feel.
     
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  13. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Poland get to decide.
     
  14. Andre0087

    Andre0087 Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  15. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

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    Just so people have full context, the word that is left out in the text here is the world "consultations".

    The abbreviated tweet might imply that article 4 means NATO has been tasked with sending troops to war, or something alike. This really just means they are bringing the heads of each ally together to hold strategic meetings on how to prepare for further escalation if it happens.

    Hopefully it does send a message though to Putin that they are taking this provocation seriously... but as I noted before, it's my theory here that he did want to provoke a response. Not militarily, but provoke a conflict within NATO and the US. He wants Trump to have political ammo to push Ukraine, and NATO to fold. The fear of going to war being that political ammo.

    Since Trump is so easily played I assume he'll react by saying he doesn't "like" the attack, but will then bash Zelensky for seemingly "starting another World War" by not "negotiating" with Putin (AKA folding) or something like that. Happy to be wrong, but Trump is extremely predictable.
     
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  16. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Russia is now 3+ years into a 3 day invasion of Ukraine. Russia's current strategy is to slow grind Ukraine into defeat. Russia has lost 1 million soldiers (death or injured), a large percentage of their tanks and artillery, lost their Black Sea Fleet flagship, had their Black Sea Fleet anchored in harbor, lost a large percent of their airforce which now will not fly over Ukraine, lost significant GDP, had their oil refineries bombed by drones, had several NATO red lines crossed when Sweden and Finland joined, etc.

    This 3 day invasion has gone to complete **** ... but ... Russia still has a chance to "win" the war.

    I would say that Poland and Ukraine alone can take on Russia. Poland has a much stronger military viz a viz Ukraine. This is in terms of equipment and training. Ukraine now has the edge in experienced, seasoned troops. The worse case scenario (for Poland and Ukraine) is a 10+ year war until Russia sues for peace. The worse case scenario for Russia is Poland joins the fight and NATO follows suit months later (with or without the US), which would likely result in Russia no longer having a functioning military except perhaps its nukes.
     
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  17. tinman

    tinman 999999999
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    ULM
    Ukrainian Lives Matter

    @jo mama
    @pgabriel
    @Salvy
    @RB713
    @El_Conquistador
     
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  18. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

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    I think that's pretty accurate to describe the situation. At the very least, if Poland enters the fight alone, their patriot missile defense air support will be able to flush years worth of Russian military manufacturing investment down the tube which prolongs the war at a stalemate long enough for Putin to potentially die.

    That's maybe the one point that I would bring into the equation here. What happens in a 10 year stalemate where Putin eventually dies?? The guy will be 82 then, and dictators usually have a shortened lifespan anyways by nature of the job hazards.

    In the grand scheme of the future of Europe, it's really not the worst outcome ever even though Ukrainians will endure hell, and will never be the same country from a population, and mental health standpoint being under threat, and occasional successful bombings and terrorist attacks for the next 10 years. Taking the Trump deal now to give Putin some land, and naively assume he won't just keep bombing you in a couple weeks is the super short term political win that could be the deal that has the worst implications for Europe for the foreseeable future.

    Or Europe could end the conflict tomorrow by not invoking NATO, but France, Germany, Poland, Sweden, and Finland could independently send in 100K troops to the Donbas, and wipe the Russians off the map and take back the country in weeks. But all of those leaders don't want to do that because they are afraid of the politics at home, and worried about political opposition from the right if they did that where they could easily end up with the US where they lose the next election to the French version of Trump.
     
  19. Reeko

    Reeko Member

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    How did she have the entire script to the movie?
     
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  20. tinman

    tinman 999999999
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