The "franchise player" debate has been settled. It's Amen.

They have different league eras though. All you are saying is where they are in comparison to their peers not if they are better than each other. The league averages are different.

Its like in fractions the denominator is different you get that or no?

16/100 vs 8/9 ok so the 8 is closer to 9. Doesnt mean 16 is less than 8. If we're talking people the group with 16/100 people obv has more people than the group with 8 people.

 

That's the whole point.....the actual number is irrelevant if you're not adjusting for how the league was when the players played. Baseball uses ERA+, basketball uses TS+. Having an ERA of 3 is vastly different during the steroid era vs the deadball era. Basketball is the same, efficiency has spiked as teams have learned the midrange is bad and 3s are good. Kobe had a career TS of 55%, but he was constantly 4-7% above league average. Jalen's TS is almost the same, only 0.8% lower, yet he's been terribly inefficient to the tune of 6% below league average. Saying kobe and jalen are equally efficient would not be an honest or accurate representation of their offensive efficiency.

 

Why not? Thats what they have done and what happened in reality. Those are the facts. Maybe if Kobe had knowledge of analytics he would be more efficient but he didnt so thats why his TS is the same as Jalen. Maybe if Jalen had no knowledge of analytics he would be even worse but he has knowledge of analytics so thats why his TS is the same as Kobe. You are living in whatifs thats not based on facts and what really happened.

This is like you saying Kobe only has 2 rings in their first 3 peat because Kings got jobbed out of a call.

 

Amen, brother. Not Amen's brother, though. There's an Abbott and Castello bit in there somewhere.

 

Because it's completely pointless analysis if you just ignore all the context. The TS+ is factually what happened the same as the actual TS, neither are opinions or anything. One is useful comparing across era, one is useless.

 

TS+ just compares you vs your peers not across eras. Not sure why you think having diff denominators (league ave) makes it a fair comparison.

The fact is TS+ compares you relative to your peers. The opinion is you thinking its useful comparing across eras.

 

Right....

 

Bro the formula is literally

TS/League average TS

The league difficulty has to be the same before you can compare across eras.

 

That's impossible, sports always change. How would you make the league difficulty the same?

 

Exactly so why are you using TS+ to compare eras? So because Jalen's league is harder than Wall that means he is now less efficient than Wall? lol

thats why I said its only used to compare you to your peers.

 

So you think TS is more useful than TS+ if you want to compare the efficiency of someone in 2025 to someone in 2005?

 

Yes. TS is based on facts. You shot X times and X times the ball went in. Thats the reality.

TS+ just shows you how efficient you are relative to your peers. Doesnt mean you are automatically better than the other dude who is in a different peer class.

The best analogy I can think of is the "pound for pound" champ. You can be the pound for pound guy but if we have Manny Pacquiao fight against Tyson Fury, Fury will win.

 

So you think the fact that basketball is played completely differently now with the spacing and all that is just irrelevant?

 

It is relevant that's why Jalen ended up more efficient than Wall. You are confusing the reason (bball played diff, there is spacing) with the result ( Jalen is more efficient than Wall). If you give Guy A a spear and he kills 1 guy and you give me a gun and I killed 20 guys who killed more people? I killed more people, thats the fact. If Guy A is the only one in his group who killed a guy and I actually killed the least amount of guys in my group why does that mean Guy A killed more than me? Thats what you are trying to argue.

You are confusing reality with what ifs. Let me ask you a question do you think what really happened is more important or what ifs is more important when determining efficiency?

 

See to me TS is more about who's BETTER at killing, the one with the knife or the gun. I'm only looking at what happened, that's what TS+ does.

 

Surely as an efficiency stat, that's the only real way to use it? If you want to just check who can do the most then counting stats make more sense than efficiency stats. Though even then if we're comparing across eras you'd be better comparing where the PPG sits compared to league average than just compare the 2 raw numbers.

 

I don't find comparisons useful in general without adjusting for the era, in any sport. I don't think john elway is worse than baker because his stats are worse. I don't think the 10th best heavyweight right now is better than Ali b/c he would beat Ali if he fought the peak version. Basketball is no different.

 

I have a question: Are there more than two people on this board who care about John Wall and Jalen Green anymore?

 

Why are you posting this here? This Amen thread is for arguing about Jalen Green and John Wall apparently. Also, the Jabari thread is often about Jalen Green. And the Sengun thread is sometimes about Jalen. This entire message board was created in the late 90s because Jalen’s mom was dating someone at that time.

Anyways, I expected Amen in the top 10 but was very pleasantly surprised with where he ended up. Sam and Bryce have been really big on Amen for a while.