The “give me Harden over FVV” takes are embarrassing

What was their culture and identity before harden?

I get you might not like harden due to previous rockets moments, but saying that harden wouldn’t fit the culture and identity of this current rockets team makes no sense.

if you really want to boost credibility of FVV over Harden you have to mention where harden falls short of culture and identity.

As it seems now all his current teammates love em, in fact some of them are having career years, all his former teammates where you say he messed up the culture also give him high praise.

How does someone who’s not a culture setter somehow have high praises from all the people he’s played with?

What’s your thoughts on Chris Paul, he dosent have a ring but every team he’s been on their franchise ends up with the most wins.
Would you rather take Jeremy Lin because he has a ring too?

 

I never said I didn’t like Harden. Please do not assume. Where did you read that “all his teammates love him”? Are career years attributed to one player? How do you make that correlation or what evidence do you have of that? I’m citing reporting about his history and as I watch him in 2025 he still plays no defense and gives no effort on that end. Clippers already had a professional culture under Rivers and now Lue. They already have vets and a core of players that have had multiple playoff experiences and championships including Powell and Kawhi. What did the Rockets have?

 

Ok no problem not all of his teammates.
Notable teammates have credited harden for helping their game by drawing defenses away from them and teaching them how to run the show.

what history are you citing?

what is a professional culture? Doc rivers throwing his players under the bus professional or Paul George hopping on podcasts professional or load manage Leonard? Which professional are we talking about here?

Winning a championship dosent mean you unlock a special ability to bring a winning culture.

you say that if harden was here that the culture would go back to when he was here in his prime. Essentially you’re saying he’d give a lazy culture? I don’t see a diva culture with the clippers.
You also say hardens not a vocal leader. You’re joking about this right?


Let me see your citied sources for all these things FVV is and harden isn’t.

I see what you want out of this team though a Pg who brings the ball up safely gives it up in the right spots, plays defense and hits 3s.

Harden can bring the ball up safely, hit 3s and put the ball in the right spot. He might lack in defense, though the clippers have a top rated defense with him playing a majority of the season and the most minutes. The difference is harden elevates his team much more than FVV ever can.

Until you can show me how FVV elevates his team more than Harden, your “but the culture, fit and leadership” statements are all opinions.

 

As someone that owned a business, director in another, hired/fired people, and frequently worked over 100 hours a week I can assure you performance is the greatest driver of winning culture. HR manager relied on my assessments, not the other way around. People that see you NOT reward the people that make it happen, look for the exit. If you don't respect him, you certainly won't respect me. I saw an office full of kiss-asses and yes men that pushed the company line and fit in with the culture and sat around and talked, scheduled meetings, and watched other people work and left early while other people stayed late and worked weekends. I watched in that same office when the economy hit the fan that I went into a meeting that lasted until 4am and in two weeks 80% of that office was gone. I watched an office full of people having to sneak around and schedule meetings with recruiters that didn't overlap so no one else knew their business. Working in a company with 200 hires and terms a year consistently. When the rubber hits the road, EVERYONE knows who to go to when an emergency hits. Nice guys don't last, responsibility is what is important. Who are we going to turn to when things get tough?

The culture and fit thing is a load of **** when you have a mountain of evidence of a guy carrying a team year after year repeatedly and doing it this year. There is a consistent record of the players around Harden confirming he is a winner. He did play sh1tty D when he was worn out and he did play solid D at times. If you are scoring 40 points and have to be on the court all the time you would do it to. I have seen the same from LBJ. We just choose to kill Harden over it. When did Harden play on a team of 3 all-stars? Which solo star beat a team with 5 all-stars? Harden almost did. With one game going differently, I don't think you have the same opinion you do. You can crap all over a perennial all-star, MVP (should have been multiple), and HOF level player all you want. FVV is never going to be that. I know all of the stories about Harden and don't defend him. He's not MJ, big surprise. I was glad we traded him. You should be THANKING him because he gave us our current team. That's how valuable he was/is. Harden would have dragged that dead ass team to 50 wins with no future.

You don't win with he's such a nice guy and professional but doesn't get the job done. If players think they can win every night because THAT guy is out there you get the best out of them. I trust our coach and young guys like the early Astros that have bonded together. They have set the culture as they have grown. I would rather see them given every opportunity to win than CARRY someone not pulling their weight.

You talk about fit with the 2004 Lakers that reached the FINALS. It wasn't fit, it was carrying a dead Karl Malone with no bench. They got beat by a solid, deeper team. 2000 Blazers lost Game 7 to the Lakers that WON THE CHAMPIONSHIP. They lost to a better team. If those are your big examples of it not working out I would point out the Charles Barkley Rockets. Again 1 game from going the distance and lost to the Sonics that went 6 games with Basketball Jesus in the FINALS. Olympics, give me a break, guys that are on vacation with no time to prepare and worn out from the season. They coast through that ****. The NBA is littered with teams that ALWAYS try to add talent because it is an arms race. Warriors were dead and now have life. "Butler is a cancer and not worth trading for..I don't want him." Warriors won championships and got Durant anyway. Tried to get him again. Boston won a championship at the same time they tried to trade Brown for Durant. Teams aren't stupid when they make these trades (except Dallas that followed your fit/culture example and pissed away Luka for AD). They know they don't have enough to get the job done. Sometimes their gambles pay off and many times they don't because everyone else was doing the same thing and did it better. It's rarely a great fit of teams like the 1993-1994 Rockets or Jazz that stay together forever and finally break through because of circumstances. Oh, that's right, Rockets traded for Drexler, then Barkley, then Quitten. Fit didn't kill the Rockets, time did. As amazing as OKC has been in talent acquisition and trades they could still be outmaneuvered by someone else. Nothing is guaranteed. I'm still in shock that first OKC team didn't have a dynasty.

Final point, I would rather have the ammunition to get someplace than worry about if we can sit around together and say the right things. I would rather treat men as men, not boys, and tell them I believe in you and have given you every chance to succeed. I promise you every other team is looking to do the same.

 

They’re not opinions. I make an assessment from facts and observation. An opinion is not necessarily based on facts or substantiating information.

I specifically talked about fit. I also specifically talked about culture and identity. I also said the 2 teams were at different phases.

Doc Rivers already built a culture. They had a top 5 offense for most of the 7 yrs he was there winning around 50 games or more 6 of 7 yrs making the playoffs in that same time. This was a winning culture.

Harden did not fit the culture Udoka wants
https://www.thedreamshake.com/2023/...ardens-return-to-the-houston-rockets-nba-2023

Harden was privileged and team culture catered to him
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30528130/inside-james-harden-houston-rockets-breaking-point

Harden quit on Rockets and wanted out
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2020/12...erbal confrontations,had a “heated exchange.”

Harden tensions with CP3
https://sports.yahoo.com/report-det...en-james-harden-and-chris-paul-190252552.html

Harden quit on Nets and wanted out
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...s-locker-room-questioned-if-star-quit-on-team

Tensions with Durant
https://www.netsdaily.com/2022/2/15...call-that-ended-james-harden-days-in-brooklyn

So why on earth would we come crawling back to a player who simply doesn’t fit along with a history of friction with teammates and giving up on franchises publicly?

 

I said nothing about performance not being important. Never said anything about being a nice guy. But Performance is not the end all be all and at the end of the day the person has to fit within the culture of the organization in addition to performance. To say fit doesn’t matter is simply not realistic or honest. Especially in teams every project manager understands this. People that don’t fit into a culture or environment or pace of the job simply get the boot or not promoted. There’s people that affect their environment negatively and they weigh teams down. Very simple. No different here.

Dallas doesn’t care about fit. Its about casinos and resorts lmao

Most of what you say is conjecture, assumptions or opinion. I never “crapped” over anyone. I simply said he was not a good fit with what we wanted to accomplish and that’s a fact. Udoka even
said this publicly. If your team preaches a culture of defense and accountability why would you get a player that does neither? If your team has a ball dominant 2 guard why would you get another ball dominant pg? Fit. Not every player fits with a style, culture, or system. To not believe or understand this is simply ignorant of the job of GM’s and coaches who build teams according to all these things i mentioned.

Team USA changed their team building approach after 2004. Grant Hill did the same since taking over. it wasn’t about talent anymore. And your assertion that guys didn’t care and just coasted isn’t backed by anything.

https://arizonasports.com/uncategorized/how-jerry-colangelo-reinvigorated-usa-basketball/798334/

https://www.usab.com/news/2024/01/g...pective-on-usa-mens-national-team-player-pool

“We have to zero in when putting together those pieces to a puzzle,” Hill said. “What are the complementary pieces? The players who fit, players who really will give us the best opportunity for success…

on Butler the GM and Draymond knows him. They also already have an established culture and vet leadership and was desperate for another vet that can help them win

https://sports.yahoo.com/article/steph-addresses-noise-butlers-fit-203939485.html

https://www.si.com/nba/jimmy-butler-warriors-belief-nba-title-chances

I also know how teams work and function in both worlds. There’s several players that didn’t fit or work out with an organization despite the talent but found success elsewhere like Andrew Wiggins or Andre Iguodala or Porzingis etc.

 

How do you know harden dosent fit the culture of udoka, he was never on the team.

This was when he was an MVP, that time has passed now. Assuming he’d be catered to like he was in his MVP years is unwise.

He quit on Cousins, Wall and Christian wood. He wanted out of Houston. Players leave all the time. He didn’t pull a Durant to gsw here.

He did have some faults with cp3. Cp3 wanted him to be more engaging off ball, sure that’s a nice point. Cp3 was also ass that year.

so did Durant and kyrie. Harden knew the ship was sinking when he had to carry the nets by himself while Durant was injured and kyrie didn’t want to play.

Butler has friction, warriors are doing well. Draymond has friction, he’s got 4 championships. Giannis puts pressure on the bucks, they got a championship. There’s many examples of players having friction, dosent mean they wouldn’t fit in a new environment. This rockets team wouldn’t be the same james harden team from before.

I’m gonna ignore all that doc rivers culture talk because you’ve said that FVV has a ring because he got it done and harden didn’t, so I’m sure you’ll agree the same applies to doc rivers and whatever his teams ratings were because he never got it done either. You could say he choked in the biggest moments.

 

I am/have been a project manager. Your assessment of fit/culture is what made no sense. I know the statistics and reasons behind the choice and they don't hold up. There is a broad history of Harden lifting a team up. There is a broad history of FVV being just another guy. We wanted a guy at the level of "Luka" ($43M) to be just another guy in the background, "fit in". We are so glad he took our money. He is renting our cap. One player has a history of developing players and another a history of what exactly? I understand you said you don't hate Harden. I don't hate FVV. I liked the game tonight and hated the other 10 or so before. If he was making the room/midlevel or vet min I would be happy to have him on the team. Better than Aaron Holiday, Tyus Jones but I would prefer CP3. For me you cannot talk about a player without their contract. He's not a top 20 PG. He's too small, not athletic enough to get inside, jacks up TOs that are called 3s, etc. He just needs to be off our team in place of something else. For me it is about maximizing assets. All I hear are excuses about we just need him to be this and we need to resign him for multiple years. It's not logical. It doesn't fit the culture.

 

Dude they specifically signed him and Brooks to lead a new culture. Udoka and Stone have publicly said this. They also likely signed guys like Jeff Green to help steer this young team. Its been documented that Fred is a vocal leader and plays great defense. He sets up the halfcourt game and runs the required actions and facilitates. Green and other players have credited his leadership and experience. He is a champion and former all star and his work ethic has been infectious and fits with the identity and culture with this team. This is public knowledge and has been reported multiple times. As i mentioned before to @roxon Why would the Rockets revert back to a player and culture they want to get away from?

https://rocketswire.usatoday.com/20...d-by-leadership-role-with-resurgent-rockets/#

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/...young-teammates-and-returning-to-toronto/amp/

https://www.si.com/nba/rockets/news...-looked-good-houston-rockets-preseason-finale

 

You obviously did not read anything I sent you. You likely also never watched Harden play defense. No one knows what he would do if he were here. What we do know is his history.

And unfortunately having a history matters. And part of his history is being part of a toxic Rockets culture and also quitting on several teams once he deemed them to be unfit for him.

Your Doc Rivers comment had nothing to do with what I said. The discussion was about how the 2 teams were on different timelines and phases and that Doc already built s culture there. This has nothing to do with winning a championship.

Draymond never had friction with coaching, management, Curry, or Klay. Butler got the blessing from the GM and Green. Also Warriors already have a culture

 

Dude? You are aware I am a Rockets fan and read articles too. Automatically, implies fan and follower of FVV. I don't see why you think linking these says anything. What do you think I would say? I would want to believe and market the same thing too as to why this was such a great choice at the time. Keep living in the culture is everything, performance means nothing. Very clearly the Rockets thought FVV had a better future than Harden and was FIVE YEARS YOUNGER. Logically, go back and put yourself in the decision and replay it. I already put this in another post. They signed him because he would come here for the bag of money he wasn't getting somewhere else. They signed Brooks for the same reason because they HAD TO and I like Dillon. Rockets were a dumpster fire. They believed FVVs game AND VALUE would hold up better and you have to admit that last year the numbers looked good from their perspective. FVVs D is not great. Have you been watching the games?

Revert back to a culture? We are talking about trading KD for FVV. It has LITERALLY nothing to do with culture. The Rockets would need a starting PG. Do you know of better ones on the market? Are we getting Luka? Starting Reed?

 

Not sure where this discussion is going or why KD is now involved in a discussion about Fred and Harden. You argued that teams don’t care about fit. I sent you these articles that said otherwise. I have watched every game and Fred does a fine job defending guards. He can’t guard bigger opponents on switches and that’s natural for his size. As I said no one knows what Harden would bring to this team. We do Know he isn’t a good fit based on history, ability, and this team’s objectives. The team has improved the past 2 years and 2nd place in the West. He was the guy we wanted and he has led this team. Being a pg is more than scoring points. You undervalue his abilities. No need to further discuss on hypotheticals about a player who isn’t even on the team anymore.

 

Funny how most of your missed how Uduko didn't want Harden and his attitude anywhere near this roster. He wanted a team first player to run the point and lead they younger guys. I don't ever want to pay attitude problem players even done dollar. Hard pass on Harden. He has had this chance to win hear he was to busy chasing night life following it up with clutch games of 0-# from 3point line. Double digit turnovers nights. Not getting a shot off with shot clock running down when he has the ball by himself for 18 seconds. The list goes on for this zero performance in the clutch for other teams he has been on besides the Rockets. I watched up close as a season ticket holder. I kept saying he will mature, but never happenend. He loves Harden not basketball. He loves Harden not winning. He loves Harden not putting in EVERYTHING to be a champion. Sad truth is McHale tried to get him to grow and saw her didn't have the winner drive in his DNA and called it out. I saw it and finally believed what my eyes were showing when he was here vs Spurs in the playoffs when he quit on the team. I can't believe the Harden club still thinks he is great at winning basketball. He is a choker. I rarely post on Rockets forums anymore because many are too toxic and delusional. But I'm happy to see the Rockets coming together like I thought they would with a real coach and a team first point guard.

 

That’s the issue with Harden. 15 straight years in the playoffs-no rings. Great individual performances in the regular season and some playoff games but too many critical games and series losses. Too many non-show bad performances on the biggest stages and moments in his career. This is what defines players.

 

Are we comparing Harden to the likes of LeBron? No, it’s Harden vs FVV. lol. Harden’s playoff performances beat FVV’s out of the water, despite some critical losses. Yes FVV has a ring. But many role players have a ring. So what?

 

Of course you are not desperate to have a ring, Harden is, otherwise he would not have jumped ship from Brooklyn to Philly.

FVV's ring does not have the same value as a superstar's ring but it is still rare, because Canada normally would not win a ring in a predominantly American league.

Fred VV is a special player with flaws, he is a small person who was undrafted and made the All Star Game. That ring was the cherry on top of his career though.

 

That is not the topic of this discussion. I made no comparison.

 

10 times out of 10. U pick harden over fvv.
Fvv fking role right now is deferring to the youngsters while getting paid 40 mil and not elevating anyone game with his playmaking. Like the okc game he's literally getting carried. In the playoffs harden might b considered a choker but u can rely on him to put up points or set folks up with his superior playmaking ability if sengun or green are struggling. Fvv is averaging 14 pts.

I pretty sure we have dumbasses on here who would say fvv basketball career is better than Harden bc he got a ring.


The sooner we move on from fvv the better bc we have folks doubling down on this stupidity and disrespect.

 

Why wouldn’t a role player’s ring does not have the same value. That’s like saying software engineers accomplishments don’t matter as much as tech execs. Or laborers accomplishments don’t matter as much corporate office workers.That’s quite an elitist viewpoint. Role players work hard to get to where they are just like any other professional basketball player. They play a big part of the success of the star players. Hakeem realized the importance of supporting players and thanked them in his MVP year. If you watched the 2019 finals, fred played starter minutes and a big part of why they won. It wasn’t just Kawhi or Siakim.