Is Political Debate Healthy?

My thoughts are the D&D is populated by many but most of the bandwidth is used by a specific few.

I have been called some pretty bad stuff from those that disagree with my opinion.
Baseball season is upon us and I tend to migrate over to the Astros and Texans forums.
It's a bit less contentious but not without dust ups.

No one on here is going to convert someone to the other side of the aisle.
It's healthy for people to disagree on issues and discuss, but when the threads descend into the sewer it's sad.
Although we may disagree on issues we must remember we are mostly Americans here and should hope for the best for this country.
What anyone's version of that is might be different

 

It can be.
Not here. Not anymore.
Harder to do in everyday life.

Antagonizing others here is an escape for people who can't deal with it in everyday life.

How I feel depends on sincerity of the person or persona I'm replying to. It's becoming less a marketplace of ideas and more a Xittsville of one bird vomiting popcorn info they got from another bird.

Disengaging is fine. Many people I respected dont post on here anymore. I still use this place to vent and look at other views.

We all want to feel connected with the world. This is becoming an unhealthy way because we dehumanize others and normalize bad behavior in our own tribes.

How I feel...its complicated. I think all Americans will agree fear, uncertainty, and doubt hss been ramped to high since 9/11. Despite the wealth flowing into your 401ks as A Number, optimism and action is drowned out by resistance to change and analysis paralysis.

My tribe's standing also matters but are lib or con tears the most important thing? Depends on whether you blame the other side for loss you've already have or feel you have.

If you're feeling drowned by Post-Truth cynicsm or narrative capture, I'd suggest feeding the views you see on here into an online enabled chatbot. Way less grief and much easier to navigate the situation with a dialogue against a ****ing robot of all places...
https://bbs.clutchfans.net/threads/...ng-people-rethink-conspiracy-theories.325628/

There's a well known experiment where these scientists mentally and physically torture a dog inside a cage. Whenever the dog wanted to do something different, it recieved mild electric shocks causing the dog to recoil in fear and confusion. Then these ****ers turned off the shocking device and opened the door to the cage.

The terror struck dog obediently stayed inside the cage even when encouraged to walk out.

It's not anyone's job to play fact checker or groundskeeper here. Everyone gets meaning from this cesspool in their own way. We can complain about boomers or how the young are weak or naive with The Pronounz. We can even complain about lies while peddling lies despite knowing 2 minutes with chatgpt or similar would resolve the issue flat. I don't know what it takes to make someone turn into an ugly SOB like that but here we are.

It's like not using the phone when you and someone fight over if an actor is in a movie or not, but instead of a fun timewaster, it's now an emotional life or death rollercoaster because there are many big and bad problems of scale we can't un**** ourselves...Climate change, debt, institutional decay.

There's a movie scene that described our situation perfectly. Sorry to Bother You, a weird absurdist satire, was an indie movie that got famous when Armie Hammer did Armie Hammer things before people knew Armie Hammer did the things.

This convo still hits hard for me:

Dude: I tried to change it. I tried to stop it but it's just right in front of their faces. They're [doing monstrous things] and nobody gives a ****

Friend: Most people that saw you on that screen knew calling their congressman wasn't going to do ****. If you get shown a problem but have no idea how to control it, then you just decide to get used to the problem.​

 

If posters like you step away the DD will become another right wing infested 4chan message board. This forum has a handful of highly motivated activists that obviously have nothing better to do but flood the zone with right wing propaganda all day every day.

So is it healthy to take a break… yes absolutely.

If posters like you leave and no longer contribute to the debate is the DD better off for it? Absolutely not.

So my advice… maybe take a short break or only check in periodically. Dont let this become a hate infested 4chan 2.0 by normal objective people never showing up.

 

My biggest gripe about this forum is when someone makes a not so controversial statement there is that person or people that try to read to deep and find a way to demean or belittle the poster, because of their political alignment or PERCEIVED alignment.

People on here back the ones they think are in their corner and come hard at someone supposedly on the other team. Which is ironic for me being that I support and despise many things from both sides regardless of the context of the statement.

I suspect many here would not be opposed to having a beer with one of their antagonists in real life and that meeting would probably go well. And I suspect the convo would switch to the Rockets, Astros or Texans. Many are willing to forget about or commonalities for the purposes of trying to make someone on this forum to appear to be an intellectual inferior. I consider most on this board to be pretty smart. Some maybe not aligned with me personally on a political level, but we are fathers, mothers, citizens, volunteers.

I do not know how anyone derives pleasure from using such terms as:
Libtards
Cultists
MAGATS
Cucks
Braindead
Fascists
Commies
and so on

PS. Not many get comedy on this forum, maybe some are way more serious than I. But again, if you knew me, I go funny first.
Because if you cannot laugh at our political situation for however many years, you will develop ulcers and no longer eat wonderful Mexican food.

I do not control the trajectory of this country. I am powerless to control the trajectory of this country as is everyone else on this board who is not an elected official. We can scream at the clouds all day but that won't make it sunny if it's raining. Thats what straws dumped into a hurricane are for.

 

Debate can be healthy to clarify where the differences are. Go into it trying to learn why the other person believes what they do and trying to explain why you believe what you do, not trying to convince them to change their views. Whether a person actually changes their mind is mostly not under your control. All you can do is offer them a different perspective and try to show them that reasonable people can differ with them.

 

You are powerless to control the trajectory of a country....

Is that why you are afraid of acknowledging fascism? You know you can't do anything to stop it? So it's a self defeating attitude?

You refuse to listen to anyone who uses a term that is recognized by actual political scientists and historians? Libtard is a pejorative that plays with the pejorative term "r****ded". Fascism is an actual political phenomenon documented by historians. So why are you internally suppressing speech by automatically dismissing words that have academic meaning behind it?

Were Nazis not fascist in 1925 when they just did political rallies b****ing about migrants replacing Aryan Germans and political street riots with clashes with labor unions and commies?

How would you hypothetically deal with a fascist movement in front of you?

Do you also think fascism only exists if there is a death camp outside your house?


Comedy is self evident. Trying to explain that you are trying to be funny means you failed at it. It's an inherent trait of comedy. You can never explain that you are trying to be funny. It's a paradoxical notion. You can't be funny and explain why you are funny.

 

In terms of the question of the thread....


Discussion only is valuable when there is sincerity on both sides.

The MAGATs (@Kemahkeith you give me inspiration to use that term more) and fascism in general has a history of using insincere humor to launder their bigotry and hatred.

So a discussion is useless once the right wing element dropped any sense of sincere dialogue.

 

**** that shithole Trump.

DD

 

Case in point listed above^^^^^^

 

Case in point listed above.^^^^^^

This is exactly what I mean. You have an issue with me because you perceive me as what you have cooked up in your mind as to what I am.

You think I'm some sort of Trumper because I had made some comments on my opinion of Trans issues.
But I will tell you I lean left on many issues.

I'm not going to further engage you on the issue of civility or comedy. We are just wired differently and that's OK.

We can agree to disagree.
The only difference is I do not pounce unless pounced upon.
You instigate and I retaliate, and it end up being an endless circle.
I don't hate you; I think you are a very smart individual and just because we don't agree on some things
that does not make you, my enemy.

I just don't see the need to make thigs personal.
You have admitted you like to troll on occasion and that's all good we all do it.

I respect you laying it on the line for our country and I respect what you have had to deal with as far as not being a prototype American.

I just wish you would stop looking for friction when there really isn't any.

Respectfully Keith

 

What is your point?

Why do you get offended at people using a term like fascism that has a deep understanding by academic historians and political scientists?

How is someone like me not using the term correctly. Are you able to actually engage sincerely?

Or will you use your bad sense of humor to avoid actually addressing these sincere questions?

 

Your point is very shapeless and vague to where it seems like whatever I type you will express this sentiment that I'm confirming your point as a way to dismiss anything I typed.

Is this another angle of attempted humor?

 

I read this forum (DnD) every morning for like 10 mins. Sometimes it’s depressing sometimes it’s funny. I do agree that a lot of what y’all post, both sides, act like you are going to change someone’s mind.

Most everyone who posts in this forum have made up their mind politically. For some, their identity is wrapped up in it. It’s not like a light bulb will go off and you will change their mind. This is literally scoreboard agreements in mostly bad faith.

I found myself doom scrolling on twitter and getting upset with the time spent there, I deleted the app around 2 months ago. Thankfully I never had a Facebook so I avoided all that insanity.

So beyond listen to CNN and a sprinkling of Fox on XM as I drive into work so I can hear both sides cover their ass, this is my other political outlet of ultra lurking.

What is sad truly is both sides don’t really care about Americans. They want to stay in power, get rich, and project the new scare tactic of the month. All this being said I def lean more a lot more left than right although I did vote for bush in 2004.

back to lurking.

 

Also do you not have the basic self awareness to realize that you are incapable of debating someone who has ideoligical disagreements with you?

You frame every argument as futile by someone merely mentioning terms like "fascism".

You confuse disagreements in ideology with being personally insulted. You are incapable of debating political ideology without being personally offended. That's why you get offended with terms like 'fascism" because you inherently see these terms as insults rather than observations of current political movements.

And that is why you are incapable of having a sincere ideoligical debate. Because someone who does debate you has to step on eggshells to avoid you flipping the table in anger.

 

I think people just need to grow thicker skin. I've seen it so many times where people are engaged in some debate in this forum and clearly one of the parties is being obtuse whether that is due to ignorance or trolling. I mean, at some point you have to learn to realize that you are unlikely to change that individual's point of view, but getting into a name calling match just becomes childish.

Lets be real, the majority of us already have a set of beliefs that we really will stand our ground for. We should not come to this forum to change someone else's mind, but instead to try to engage in conversation with an opposing view that may give you a different perspective even if it ultimately it will not change your belief. It is possible to be respectful, but instead we have all these angry individuals that the best they can do is either troll, name call, or just be straight up assholes. I've said it several times before, some of you guys have a ton more time than I do and you guys are really really really up to speed in every detail of current events. Some of you have a solid grasp of history and are trying to apply parallels to certain situations. It's impressive and personally I have learned a lot more by coming to this forum, than by reading my Facebook wall. I do like going to read NYT, WSJ, WP, when possible, but man, life is just busy, so all the X'eets and articles that get posted here, does help from time to time to get caught up.

I've seen both cases on here. I've been in arguments where the individual is just hard headed and is truly grounded in their belief even if there are actual facts to back up they are wrong, with this type of individual I just end up "liking" their post once I know they just have to have the final word, while other individuals I've have had some good engagement but at the end it's one of those situations, agree to disagree, but glad to see the other side.

I've seen a few individuals that tend to troll, but at times you can actually engage them in good conversation if you are non-confrontational about it, versus I've seen some that just want to be trolls (I just put those on ignore, just not worth the time). Currently, it does seem to lean heavily liberal on this forum and unfortunately, a lot of the conservative posters are more trollish rather than engaging in good conversation. I come here just to read, if it's worth posting, I will, but if not, I just continue reading.

I don't think it's necessary to take a break from this place. In fact, maybe you should just evaluate yourself more closely and figure out how not to let your emotions get the best of you. It's a public forum. We really don't know the intent of the individual on the opposite side of the screen. Sometimes they just want to piss you off. Sometimes they do want to take your opinion into account. Sometimes they are highly ideological folks that you have no chance of having a productive conversation. Sometimes people are just angry and their only way of coping is call everyone that disagrees an idiot lol. We can't all just be angry individuals. Politics is a hard topic to touch in the real world as well, at least personally, I really don't have anyone I can engage with much, that's why I'm here.

 

George Washington’s quote of “and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party generally” applies now more than ever. He was worried that people would see themselves as their political party first and Americans second.

Taking a step back and realizing most of us are Americans, we do want what’s best for America, we just have vastly different views on how to achieve the shared goal. Start from there. Although this is sane washing a lot of what is happening currently unfortunately.

 

I do not know if you are willing, but if you are, please look at any of my previous posts and let me know if there is anything you can quote from me that would make anybody think i have fascist leanings.

PS an ideological debate ends once you call someone what that person deems a derogatory term. At least it does for me.
Thats when the poo flinging begins.
I have only got into it with two individuals on this board in my history here.
So at least you are in a very exclusive group.

 

Are you self exposing yourself?

When did I call you specifically a fascist?

If you defend Trump and the MAGA movement I'll say you are defending fascism but that is to the extent at which I'll use the term towards a poster like you who doesn't have strong ideoligical beliefs but your standard reactionary views your average American male has. But if you think the words I type is accusing you personally of being a fascist, you are then just self reporting yourself.

I'm asking why you immediately dismiss someone for using the term "fascist"?

How would you address a hypothetical fascist movement? Would you try to address it while tip toeing around to avoid saying the actual term?

Or are you one of those people who believes fascism is "death camps" and without death camps physically in front of you, you will immediately dismiss anyone using therm "fascism"?

Historically we know "fascists" existed. You and I agree that Nazis were fascist. The question I propose to you then is...


When did Nazis become fascist? Was it specific actions? Was it the ideology they spread? What is fascism to you?

These are all questions from sincerity. And to the topic of the thread, a "discussion" is only valuable if there is sincerity. Can you sincerely answer the questions I just asked?

 

Let's be clear. "Libtard" is an actual pejorative based on a actual pejorative term "r****ded". So yes when someone uses that term, you can assume there will be no useful debate to come out of a conversation with someone who uses that term in their daily language.


"Fascism" is a actual historically documented phenomenon that has academic scholarly work. You confuse the term "fascism" as a insult when it's merely an observation of a political movement.

Do you see the difference?