watch out excuses coming in for JG like he's not surrounded by shooters Cade and his fans are not using that excuses
neither, he aint point nothing. He doesnt run the offense, but he'll get u a few assists here and there.
Why do you value on ball/off ball gravity more than true shooting? Amen 60.3 (61.3 as starter) Jalen 54.9 Amen not only leads the Rockets in TS% but is top 50 in entire NBA. No other Rockets in top 100. https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/player-stat/ts-percentage Amen also has a rim FG% of 60.0 while Jalen rim FG% is 42.7%. Amen also averages a double double in PPG + REB as well as 4 stocks as a starter.
KM Jr had higher ts% seasons than Luka Doncic and Devin Booker. And the answer to why is literally the on ball and off ball gravity metrics.
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/drives?TeamID=1610612745&dir=D&sort=DRIVES Green literally has a higher volume of drive attempts than Amen and has a higher fg% at those attempts than Amen (46% vs 47%). Green also has a lower turnover ratio on those attempts. And we can safely assume Green is driving in more traffic than Amen. So Green is more efficient and turns the ball over less per driving attempt while doing it against more congested traffic than Amen. And for for all general rim finishing, according to BBall reference its 70% vs 75% with Amen having a 5% pt lead with a SIGNFICANTLY higher volume of tip in attempts and open dunker spot attempts.
On ball/off ball gravity does not equate to any kind of offensive production or efficiency. And Amen is producing highest TS% on team, almost 17/10/5 with 4 stocks while also defending opposing teams best player. It's surprising you are so low on a player that is almost universally lauded by not just Rockets fans + local media but also by the greater NBA community.
I do not believe that assumption is safe or accurate at all. Jalen is a demon in transition but he is not as efficient as driver in half court especially vs contact/in traffic. As for Amen having more tip in attempts + open dunk attempts, why is this a negative? Rockets offense actually encourages players to be more aggressive cutting + rebounding.
If you think I'm low on Amen's offense then you also must think I'm low on Green's offense also because my only claim is Green is a more talented scorer and in this specific argument Green is a more skilled finisher at the rim. You have to be able to understand that because someone thinks player a is better than player b at something specific doesn't make them a hater. Amen is a lot more talented as a passer and is a quicker decision maker while also being a much better defender. I acknowledge where Amen is better than Green. I'm not a Green hater because I think Amen is a more talented passer. Whether Jalen Green's gravity has a positive effect on the team or not is irrelevant to the premises that are being debated here. I'm explaining the reason why Amen has a higher ts%. It's the same reason guys like KJM had higher scoring efficiency seasons than some of the best scorers in the game today. Amen has a large volume of buckets from dunker spot attempts, tip in attempts. We aren't examining these ts% in a vacuum right? Because we have to determine what Amen's ts% would be if he was attacking POA defenses as frequently as Green and being constantly face guarded off ball and having to expend energy just to get free and get the ball in his hands. No one is trying to deny Amen the ball. The gravity argument in this specific debate isn't to tell you Green is great for the team. The gravity argument is used to explain the ts% difference. Do you understand that?
What assumption? That Jalen Green experiences more traffic driving to the rim than Amen? Dude what do you think on ball gravity measures?
Also I literally gave you player driving stats for both players and Green has a higher fg% than Amen with higher volume also. And if your argument is that % is inflated by transition buckets, then let me inform you that "player drives" are a separate half court stat than "transition possessions". It's literally in front of your face that Green has a higher fg% in half court drives to the rim than Amen and you are still denying reality.
The FG% for drives is almost even, the volume differential is more significant. Same with transition. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/transition The TS% difference also explains my point, Amen should not be penalized because he plays to his strengths + is thereby more efficient offensively. And no one has argued that Amen is the more skilled offensive player over Jalen. His advanced scoring repertoire is literally why Jalen was compared to Kobe + MJ before he was drafted. And I'm not accustomed to your posting style so I apologize if I misunderstood your hostility was not towards the player (Amen) but rather the poster.
I think what @fchowd0311 is trying to illustrate is that TS% is useful but can be misleading for players who tend to operate by offensive scheme at the rim. It's not to say anyone is "penalized" for having a higher TS%, but that THAT stat alone can make you think players are better offensively then they actually are. Using those numbers, guys like Clint Capela and Deandre Jordan and Rudy Gobert would seem to be some of the best offensive players on the planet but we know that's not true even though John Collins has a higher TS% than Steph Curry. In other words, people who manage to get the ball a foot or less from the hoop tend to shoot higher percentages and since that is the most guarded spot on the whole court, your opportunities to get it THAT close are limited to a handful of opportunities a game(a little bit more if you have a Harden or CP3 assisting, or your team crashes the board hard) which is why you very rarely see high TS% players scoring more than 20pts a game because there just aren't that many opportunities that close to the hoop. Amen makes the most of his opportunities near the rim, but it doesn't scale in the same way Jalen's numbers might scale because Amen shoots well below average most everywhere else on the court. Smart guy who knows his limits - but he isn't going to put up 25+ a night as a primary scorer getting buckets the same way he gets buckets now(transition, rim runs, hitting the glass)....the hope is he can pick up extra buckets by expanding his offensive game a bit more similar to Westbrook but it's worth mentioning that Westbrook(nor Gianis) was never a highly skilled closer in the same way great offensive players normally are.
You realize I'm responding to a claim you made where Jalen Is forty something % at the rim and Amen is seventy something % ? So yes Jalen has slightly better efficiency driving to the rim in a half court set on higher volume but also in more congested traffic than Amen.
Thank you, just realizing this as I reread this thread. I should not have interjected into what may have been a private discussion with @MystikArkitect but was mostly trying to understand + query this part of his post.
Exactly you compare ts% of players with similar roles. For example compare the ts% of SGA and Green. SGA is obviously better and there is no ambiguity based on their roles and shot diet. Both attack POA defenses constantly as they fill the same role. For Amen compare his ts% to a guy like Arron Gordon.
That dude says stuff purposefully to instigate. We can have a debate of who the better time finisher is but this dude says stuff in a matter of fact time with zero backing of his premises. He assumes his premises are self evident. They aren't. And that's what pisses me off with posters like him. "Obviously Amen is better at finishing at the rim". No context, data anything to express why he's so confident and matter of fact in these claims. He's a trash poster.
This is more inference vs proof of causation because the stats in link does not differentiate if drives were in traffic or not. But I yield to your point.
I think it's a safe assumption from the fact that Green is top ten in the league in on ball gravity and Amen is not.
This idea that Amen plays an Aaron Gordon role is just not true. Amen touches the ball 53.2 times per game, Gordon only 38.8. That's 37% more ball touches every game. And those averages include Amen's time earlier in the season when he was coming off the bench for fewer minutes and playing off the ball much more often than he is now. Green's touches are higher than Amen's on the season--62.8 per game--but his usage and Amen's are much closer than you're implying here. Amen's time on-ball has noticeably increased too since becoming a starter. I suspect their numbers are very, very similar the last 20 games or so.
Trying to discuss the intricacies of Jalen's mediocre to average game vs Amen's above average to amazing game (due to Amen simply playing to his strengths and Jalen shoehorning things hes not good at into his game) is beyond some obsessive posters who latch on to any conversation in any thread and hijack it with whatever crap they pull out of their ass to try and prove their point. Amen is the superior player at the rim. As you pointed out, there isn't more points awarded for degree of difficulty. Ball either goes in or it doesn't. There has been maaaaany stats proving how Jalen is the worst of the 5 starters from an on/off numbers standpoint. As hes taken on a larger role in Fred's absence, the team has largely suffered. His half court offense is redundant with Amen and less preferable even if he is a better shooter because there is a smaller chance of the ball going into the basket. He's also just smaller so he can get bumped off drives by almost anyone from Jalen Brunson to even Jamal Shead. Jalen's shortcomings have been posted over and over and over again to where his stans (there's like 4 of them they're all just really loud) think a 1% increase in 3 pt volume is some sort of marked improvement.
