Why is Israel better than Hamas? As in what were the means that lead to this difference in moral superiority of Israelis over Palestinians? Genetic predisposition? One religion is superior than the other?
I didn’t say Israelis are morally superior to Palestinians. I don’t like to generalize in that way. Israel has democratic institutions and treats its people well. Hamas is a radical and violent organization that espouses illiberal values I find unacceptable. As a governing entity, Israel (and the US) more closely aligns with my beliefs than Hamas. I can say that while also being strongly opposed to some of its actions in the region that harm others.
What aspect of Israeli culture allowed a superior more moral government to rise relative to the Palestinians? Genetic predisposition? Superior intrinsic cultural values? Superior religion? I don't think you understand the implications of your framing here. You don't think you are generalizing but the logical end state of your premise is in essence a generalization.
This is a curious argument. So believing one form of governance to be better than another is a kind of bigotry, in your mind?
Yes it is when one government is built off of settler colonialism and the other government is formed from refugees struggling to have self determination for half a century. The Israeli government is more functional, more economically prosperous, is backed by the world's most powerful hegemonic force in civilization history economically and militarily. This creates a situation where one population will have access to more economic opportunities, access to better healthcare and access to better education which leads to these diverging outcomes between Israelis and Palestinians. What Hamas is and what the Israeli government is is a product of settler colonialism vs native refugee stateless humans. If you want to say one government is better for it's people than the other... Fine. But don't stop there. If I would compare it to something, it's like when a right wing individual posts Black crime statistics and just stops there because they want to give the implications of one race having worse moral values but ignore the context of history of how that statistic came to be. Do you get what I'm saying? If you don't believe this is the reason for the divergent outcomes of these two groups then what other explanation can you provide that isn't related to one side being intrinsically better humans?
I think we can say one way of a society being organized is preferable to another, independent of the path those societies took to reach their current state or the intrinsic "goodness" of the people making up those societies. If I was asked to snap my fingers and turn every government in the world into either a Western-style democracy (which is what Israel is) or an Islamic theocracy (which is essentially what Hamas is), I would go with the former. And I think anyone who would instead choose the latter is simply wrong. In general, I'm conflicted on the idea of thinking one person is intrinsically better or worse than another. I believe we should be responsible for the choices we make, and some people make better moral choices than others (and, yeah, part of that does have to do with culture they are brought up in). However, how we develop as moral individuals is not fully in our control, and clearly some people also face far more challenges in life than others and are therefore as a matter of probability are more likely to make very bad moral choices. I say the above just to be clear that I am generally not comfortable with the idea that one person is "intrinsically better" than another, and I would not make assumptions on this from the type of society or government they live under.
Israel is the analog for law enforcement and prosecution in this situation. That removes the context of why the IDF soldiers are sniping at them and sending missiles at their homes. That is why the people should turn on Hamas and side with Israel, so they can stop being battered. Supporting Hamas just continues the battering.
We can talk all day about the context that each side would like to offer for why they are acting violently. Is this how you think police and law enforcement should work? Ruthlessly bombing a beleaguered population until they somehow miraculously "turn on" the criminal organization that has hoarded all the weapons and resources? Can you provide an historical example of this ever happening?
Expanding settlements , kicking people out of their homes. Trying to annex the entire region and then @StupidMoniker acts surprised . that really sounds like law enforcement what a dufus he hates Arabs/brown people and believes in the supremacy of an Israeli state, that’s really all there is to it
Do people make choices independent of their material conditions? You act as if you feel bad about saying one group is intrinsically better than the other. But then you say "ya it's sometimes culture". So how is culture formed? Through genetic predisposition? I'm simply asking why Palestinians formed a worse government than Israelis. Inferior culture? Genetics? You have a escape hatch to get out of this loop that makes you look kinda bigoted here when I know you aren't. You can just instead say "material conditions".
I don't think choices can be made totally independent of material conditions. But some people are more willing to make difficult choices based on moral principle than others. I think that's very much an individual thing, though. I wouldn't generalize that a given demographic group are somehow better in this regard than another. Also, I have no problems with the idea that some cultures (which is nothing but a bundle of shared practices and beliefs passed from one generation to the next) are morally better than others. None whatsoever. Do you think all cultures are necessarily equal from an ethical standpoint? The historical reasons for why Israel has one form of government that I think is better than that of the neighboring Arab countries and certainly Hamas is probably multi-faceted. That the founders of Israel tended to be more secular and part of an intellectual class, and they received significant financial backing from liberal Western countries, likely has something to do with it. I don't think the genetic stock of Jews vs Arabs is a factor, and it's not one I have any interest in even considering. That said, I'm not an expert on the historical underpinnings behind the governments in the region, and I have to admit my opinions on how much to weigh various factors isn't worth a whole lot.
This is one of those "you can't have your cake and eat it" situations. You don't want to generalize a demographic or ethnicity being better than another but then make claims that when you go down it's logical conclusion like saying The Israeli government is morally superior to Hamas the inevitable outcome is believing one group of humans are morally superior. The difference between the ISraeli government and Hamas isn't morality. It's power dynamics of a modern military war machine funded and backed by the world's most powerful entities on the planet vs a group of humans who've experienced displacement multiple times in their lives, are stateless, are sanctioned to where no viable economy can occur etc. That is the difference between the two governments. It has nothing to do with morality. Palestinians aren't morally superior to Jews and vise versa. Any ethnic group of humans can stumble upon some power and prosperity will increase their power and go down a path of settler colonialism. Any group of humans are capable of this. Any group of humans after 100 years of displacement and oppression will eventually create radical violent resistance organizations and those organizations due to not have convention warfare systems will do actions that convention warfare machines don't have to resort to like suicide bombings. Why suicide bomb when you got 5th generation stealth fighters? This goes back to material conditions right? Let me ask you this. Do you believe culture is an effect from material conditions experienced by a collective group of people or so you believe culture results in material conditions? If the later then where does culture come from? Genetic predisposition?
If you visit Bangladesh now and visit it's capital city Dhaka and go to it's more upscale districts like Gulshan, why would you see a lot more women there without hijabs walking around independently with career driven ambitions while you go to a rural poor village in Bangladesh you will see far more women wearing conservative Islamic clothing and be more restricted in loving conservative traditional lives?[l
Isn't it clear that culture is affected by material conditions and vice versa? They are tangled up with each other. I fully agree that if you can improve the material conditions of a people then that will help them to develop more free and open culture. But it is no less true that an intolerant culture that suppresses free thought and innovation can make it more difficult for a people's material conditions to improve.
No? Unless you are referring to positive feedback loops? An example. Poverty and mass incarnation practices lead to more single parent households. Single parent households struggle more and results in further poverty. A positive feedback loop. It seems like your argument is basically " it maybe like 15% genetic predisposition"
Yes, I think there is a feedback loop involved. I really don't get why you think my POV somehow hinges on the non-Jewish population being genetically inferior to Jewish population in that region.
I think it's the end state of your premise logically drawn out if you believe the Israeli government is morally superior to Hamas. Morality has nothing to do with the difference. Material conditions have everything to do with it. Culture is created from a group of humans experiencing and responding to shared material constitution experiences. The Israeli government is more productive in providing quality of life to its people and it has nothing to do with morality.
I tried to explain what I meant by saying one form of government is better than the other. If I had to pick between two forms of government to be in place for every population on Earth, the one I choose is the one I consider to be better. And I will choose a Western-style democratic government like Israel's over Hamas-style governance or that of most other Arab countries in the region every time. I don't think there is any logical throughline from that POV to Jews must be genetically superior to non-Jews.
I think thinking this way is a irrelevant practice. These two groups of people didn't master plan their government by indicating their cultural and moral values. These governments formed organically through material conditions and power dynamics. Ya if you are going to master plan a new government you probably aren't going to prefer the one that doesn't have events conventual military lol. Hamas doesn't even have a ****ing Air Force. No ****?
