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I'm okay with Amen coming off the bench as long as JG is playing well

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by OremLK, Jan 10, 2025.

  1. Houston77

    Houston77 COOKIES AND CAKE, MY TEAM BAKED!
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    Because Manu proved he was better off the bench. Amen has shown is he much better with the starters. He complements Green and Sengun perfectly, helping them unlock their potential. The comparison is silly.

    And, I’ll say it — Manu was overrated. He got a ton attention because he was such an unusual case. Amen, conversely, has the highest ceiling on the team. The idea of benching him now that he’s show his upside with Green and Sengun is ludicrous.
     
  2. Salvy

    Salvy Member

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    I want Sengun, Sengun and Sengun playing the most..... They are our best prospects and franchise players.....
     
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  3. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    Our and Jalen's offense are peaking with Amen starting 5 games. The theory that 3's would help more doesn't even have a 1 game sample behind it. And I typically believe that theory.

    Something is different. The efficiency we're losing from lack of spacing is being made up somewhere else: that's a fact for this stretch. We can debate what it might be, but factually it's happening.

    So if this persists, Amen is going to be in the 0.01% of perimeter players who's so impactful outside of his shooting that it can cover the shooting efficiency gap.

    I can't fathom how you go to Amen and say: though you're defeating the prediction I'm still going to bench you because I want to give Jabari a second chance to prove me right.

    It's just not going to make sense if we win at a better rate with Amen. I'm not sacrificing a single win for a theory. I'd rather sacrifice games by empowering creators other than Sengun and FVV. That has way more potential for us than going back to that disgusting offense we've been running.

    Jabari should beat Brooks out. In truth, that's the player in his role. Amen is going to be adding something that no one on the roster can do. We've practically changed the system.
     
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  4. Houston77

    Houston77 COOKIES AND CAKE, MY TEAM BAKED!
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    lol
     
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  5. Houston77

    Houston77 COOKIES AND CAKE, MY TEAM BAKED!
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    Had the Spurs brought Duncan off the bench, that would have improved spacing. I wonder if they considered that?
     
  6. OremLK

    OremLK Member

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    For now at least, Alpi is clearly the Tim Duncan of this team, not Amen. Not that any of these guys are the level of ol' Timmy at this time.

    I'm a bit confused by some of y'all's responses to this. I want to ask you two things:

    1. Were we not winning with Jabari in the starting lineup? Last time I checked, we've been a top 3 seed in the stacked West basically the entire season. Usually teams don't make a permanent shakeup to the starting lineup unless things are going poorly/disappointingly.

    2. What difference does it make whether Amen starts or returns to the bench as long as he keeps playing the same number of minutes in a similar role? It really should not affect either his development or the team's success. If you want to see him play with JG and Alpi more, stagger the minutes so that FVV or Dillon or Jabari go to the bench early.

    So, just to be clear--I don't have any problem with Amen remaining in the starting lineup either. I'm just saying I'm fine either way. But don't be surprised if Ime Udoka does exactly what I outlined above when Jabari returns from injury, provided there isn't another injury to a starter (knock on wood). Udoka both played with and coached for that same deep Spurs team with Duncan, Manu, and Parker. He has also already shown himself to be reticent to change the starting lineup as a head coach. It's possible he'll bench Jabari, but I think the odds are better that he does not. Like it or not, this may be the way things end up going.
     
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  7. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    This team fully consolidated might look like a team that has like a 8 man rotation with 7 dudes playing 30+ minutes a game with some combo of the core 7 getting those 30 minutes and maybe one other vet.

    The problem with that type of rotation is if injuries happen dudes who haven't sniffed playing time in a while are all of a sudden asked to do a lot.
     
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  8. MystikArkitect

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    FVV/Jalen/Dillon/Jabari/Sengun is the starting 5 for the rest of the year so long as they are healthy. There won't be any changes to the starting lineup this year and there doesn't need to be. It's an evaluation year and Amen's performances in Jabari's absence are definitely going to factor into that evaluation. So many things will get looked at this offseason when there's time and another draft pick to dangle.
     
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  9. pm713

    pm713 Member

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    Great point! We already have seen what Amen off the bench looks like so now when Jabari comes back we get to see how that works. He would probably get more looks offensively too.
     
  10. topfive

    topfive CF OG

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    I'm okay with Gehrig coming off the bench as long as Pipp is playing well.
     
  11. Hemingway

    Hemingway Member
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    I love when guys with no idea what Ime is thinking make definitive statements like this. If the Rockets keep winning and their offense playing like it is now, why would they mess with it. Amen is scoring better than Jabari, rebounding better than Jabari, and plays better defense and passes better than Jabari. Jalen plays better with Amen than with Jabari. It's just a really bad take.
     
  12. Hemingway

    Hemingway Member
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    Can one of you stat guys compare Jalen's numbers when Amen starts vs. when Amen comes off the bench? Jalen's hot streak last year coincided with Amen going into the starting line-up. I don't think it's a coincidence.
     
  13. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Jabari should be the occasional starter depending on matchups and Amen is his replacement.
     
  14. thegary

    thegary Member

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    i think jabari as the sixth man is the way to go. he can sub in for any of the starters and we maintain team balance.
     
  15. OremLK

    OremLK Member

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    I can manually pull up the game logs and look at each stretch. I'll just do the points / FG% / 3P% to make it simpler.

    2023-2024 Jalen Green games with Amen as a starter:
    Game #42: 16 points on 38.9% 16.7% shooting
    5 games, #50 through #54: 16.6 points on 40.8% / 20.7% shooting
    12 games, #65 through #76: 28.1 points on 48.2% / 41.5% shooting
    5 games, #78 through #82: 15.4 points on 38.4% / 31.7% shooting

    2024-2025 Jalen Green games with Amen as a starter:
    Game #11: 18 points on 40% / 16.7% shooting
    Game #24: 31 points on 45% / 38.5% shooting
    3 games, #29 through 31: 16.7 points on 45.5% / 45.0% shooting
    3 games, #35 through 37: 29.7 points on 49.3% / 45.7% shooting

    So I don't have the ability to get the combined numbers with the tools at my disposal, but we can see that in 19 of the games, Jalen was highly efficient and mostly scored on high volume of 28+ points per game (excluding a few games this season which were efficient but low-volume), but in the other 12 of them he was inefficient and scored more around 15-16 points per game.

    I feel like the sample size is a little too small to draw definitive conclusions about whether this is just a coincidence or whether there's a meaningful correlation here, but it is interesting to look at. Definitely possible that Amen is helping Jalen play better.
     
  16. groovemachine

    groovemachine Member

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    He will take Fred’s spot next year with Reed backing him up. There’s no rush this year, Jabari should start when he comes back.
     
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  17. glimmertwins

    glimmertwins Member

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    ....statements like that make me not want to listen to another word you say. I lived outside of San Antonio during the Manu years and caught a lot of their games - if anything he was underrated. He was the ultimate team player - if the team needed a stop, he would somehow be involved in getting one, if a team needed a score, he probably hits some impossible shot to get a bucket....if a team needed a rebound, he would somehow end up with it. He kind of had that Larry Bird thing where his nose of the ball was such that he was always the guy making the big plays when the team needed it the most....but he wasn't a scorer, a defender, a rebounder, etc. He just exploited the opponents weaknesses and did whatever his team needed in the matchup. Probably one of the smartest/craftiest players I have ever seen outside of Bird. The Spurs don't become a dynasty without him - bottom line.
     
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  18. Houston77

    Houston77 COOKIES AND CAKE, MY TEAM BAKED!
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    That's all fine. Doesn't mean he wasn't overrated.

    Let me ask you this -- who was more important to the Spurs' dynasty, Duncan or Manu? I'm not saying they don't win like they did without Manu. I'm saying they don't win anything without Duncan.

    This is all being discussed within the context of whether or not Amen should come off the bench. The point I'm making is the the proper comparison isn't to Manu, but rather Duncan, who was their franchise player because that's Amen's upside.
     
  19. OremLK

    OremLK Member

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    I think there's a real possibility that the Spurs don't win any rings during that period without Manu, just like they wouldn't without Timmy. They were both extremely important to that team. Sure, Duncan might have been more important, and it's possible Alpi might be more important to this team than Amen like some posters think he will be. Or even JG, who the hell knows?

    A lot of unknowns involved here, I don't have a ton of certainty about who will be our best/franchise player. So I guess we're all still arguing about the same damn things that we have been for years now.
     
  20. Dankstronaut

    Dankstronaut Way, way out here.

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    I agree, I can't imagine how bad Fred would have to play to get them to sit his max ass down. And Jalen is showing some consistency, hoping it holds up over the rest of the season. There's a snowball's chance in hell that Fred's option is picked up this summer and I think that's when we'll see our next evolution. Personally I'm hoping to see Amen-Jalen-DB-Jabari-Alpe get the nod. By the time Amen's ready for the bag Brook's contract will be expiring. Maybe you're just sliding Reed into the starting line then too? That's way down the line but Reed-Jalen-Amen-Jabari-Alpe would be a crazy ultimate goal lineup.
     

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