please be sure to sub to the author on twitter/x who took his time to filter out every game of every season since 1996, which is how far he could track plus/minus apparently. That explains why MJ aint at the top NBAPlayerPeakandGame1Ratings - Google Sheets
The problem with these models is the competition. Worse competition during MJ's time than today due to lack of globalization. You don't really have freaks like KD, Kawhi, Giannis etc back then. I think Pippen was the longest guy and he was what, 6'7? And also the teammate of MJ so they never guarded each other lol. I remember MJ was being credited for the slam dunk nowadays even high schoolers dunk the ball. For me the best peaks would be Shaq and Jokic. I would take either in a must win game over MJ or Lebron.
Are you serious? Shaq, who played in the Jordan era, was more freakish than anyone today, yes, way more freakish than Giannis. Ralph Sampson was literally like Wemby. And Kawhi is a freak now? What about Dennis Rodman? If you go further back, the most freakish NBA athletes ever in terms of numbers are probably Jordan, Shaq, and Wilt, etc. And then you can count the modern guys in the tier below them. Jordan actually played in the most competitive era to date, when every team had a marquee star or all-time greats. -It's true that tall lanky sharp shooters were the new trend since the 2000s, that's because back in the days tall guys were DISCOURAGED to be shooters, they were forced to bulk up and bang inside. It was coaching that limited tall shooters, until Dirk and KD broke that stereotype, just like Steph forced coaches to allow random 30 ft bombs. Back then, shooters were limited by coaches who would YANK them immediately. -It's also great that Europeans are welcome today, whereas back in the 80s they were not really accepted yet. That's why if Arvydas Sabonis or Toni Kukoc were scouted early and came over, they could be bigger stars than Luka today. Kukoc was way under-used during his prime (to which Phil Jackson admitted as one of his regrets), and Petrovic was not even given a fair chance to play in Portland until he's traded to the Nets. Today he'd have green light to shoot from day 1. -Increased training definitely improved shooting league-wide. More players take threes, so the volume went up while the percentage remained largely the same, at around 36% since '00. -Secondly, since the big man era is over, modern teams have the luxury to sign 3&D wings instead, when bruiser bigs are no longer needed. Hence the league's overall three-point volume can increase and FT% improve. -Defense is weaker today, so the stats are inflated and actually less impressive when you watch the game. There are also a lot more to skills than three-point shooting. -Lastly, everybody could dunk too back in the 80s. Jordan was special because he's more athletic. Amongst NBA players (except bit players) with the highest verticals, at the top are still mostly oldschool guys: 1. Wilt Chamberlain – 48″ 2. Darrell Griffith – 48″ 3. Michael Jordan – 48″ (Ja Morant unoffical 48") 4. Zach LaVine – 46″ 5. Jason Richardson – 46″ 6. James White – 46″ 7. Spud Webb – 46″ Zion Williamson – 45" 8. Shannon Brown – 44.5″ 9. Muggsy Bogues – 44.3″ 10. David Thompson – 44″ 11. Andrew Wiggins – 44″ 12. Harold Miner – 44″ 13. Dee Brown – 44″ 14. Deshawn Stevenson – 44″ 15. LeBron James – 44″ 16. Nate Robinson – 43.5″ 17. Julius Erving (Dr. J) – 43″ 18. Vince Carter – 43″ 19. Jamario Moon – 43″ 20. Clyde Drexler – 43″ 21. Tracy McGrady – 43″ 22. Steve Francis – 43″ 23. Speedy Claxton – 42.5″ 24. Dominique Wilkins – 42″ 25. Fred Jones – 42″ 26. Shawn Kemp – 41″ 27. Derrick Rose – 40″ 28. Gerald Green – 39″ 29. Kobe Bryant – 38″ 30. Russell Westbrook – 36.5″ 31. Blake Griffin – 35.5″ 32. Kevin Durant – 33.5″ Why do you talk like players are more athletic today? humans are humans. Freaks happen from time to time, it has nothing to do with era. Another example is the tallest human ever recorded was born in 1918.
Good thinking, I also think in the past players are literally beaten up on the court. Doesn't matter if you are KD or Rodman back then, you are getting beaten up on the court back in the day......Amen Thompson is actually playing old school ball.
Nice post. The biggest other difference from the Jordan era is the no-hand check rule. Without that rule, Curry would top out at a Reggie Miller level. Klay Thompson would be Steve Kerr. The league should do something to make 3pters more difficult. It’s crazy that they are worth 1.5x more when you’re not allowed to defend them, and now every team is built around that rule.
In Jordan's time every team had a marquee star? Ok in today's era every team has a big 3. Shaq is a generation after Jordan they aint the same era. Dennis Rodman is basically Draymond Green. What the hell makes rodman a freak? Maybe you meant a literal freak, I mean freak on the court like Greek Freak. Its been 35 yrs since 1990. Only in basketball you have copers who think people havent gotten better in something after 35 years of globalization, technological advancements and training knowledge. Literal boomers with rose tinted glasses or people who just think MJ is this perfect being with no flaws.
It goes both ways. On one hand the hand check rule makes scoring harder but on the other hand it allows people to brute force and stay in the league. For example, guys like Ryan Bowen would have been able to stay in the league longer because they would be better defenders if they are allowed to hand check their opponents. Now because of the hand check rule they are exposed for their lack of athleticism. The handcheck rule also put a cap on skill, you had guys like Starbury and Steve Francis becoming stars because they are big and strong guards despite lack of shooting and skill. Theres no point to the ballhandling skills guys like Irving or Ja Morant show you just need a big strong body to prevent getting handchecked and bully your way to the lane. 3 pters are already more difficult than 2 pters thats why they are worth more, not sure what you mean by you are not allowed to defend them.
Back in the days, contact after the shot was not a foul, landing space was not a foul until Bruce Bowen, slight body bump was not a foul, leg kick contact was not a foul. Since the 2000s (due to slowed down game), the league added many foul rules to benefit offense, until you have Harden exploiting the foul call so much that the league started to pull back. So for a while, the scoring was heavily inflated by the refs, including these fouled threes. You're right in that teams used to need brute force guys who would've taken a few spots over skilled guys, which is the point I've been trying to make. On the topic of entertainment value, people look to sports for physical competition that displays sheer athletics and strength, don't you say Shaq was pretty entertaining? I think Starbury had skills though. He just lacked a few screws when he was young. Actually, freak Shaq was the young Shaq, who precisely played in the Jordan era. 1992 Shaq was more freakish than 2000 Shaq. 2000 Shaq was more dominant due to maturity AND other centers past their prime (Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, etc) I'm not even from that generation. I watched since 96, back then every player was respectful to and admire their predecessors, so I just learned to appreciate history. Jordan has flaws, and he'd be the first one to tell you about it. While everyone claimed Jordan was the GOAT, Jordan was the one who deflected this claim EVERY TIME, he just wanted to compete everyday. Whereas LBJ was like the polar opposite, he wanted the king title from day one, hop around teams for easier path and takes days off whenever he could (I mean on court effort level and defense). I say you're the one with rose tinted glass about today's problems in the NBA. Watch the video in the other thread about total lack of defense played in the all-star game, the lack of competitiveness is an attitude problem that everyone is actively trying to address TODAY, including Adam Silver, Steph Curry, etc. They're literally trying to FIX the game. Don't say it's just the all-star game. It's a reflection of the players' attitude and the way they see themselves, the game, and the fans. The contrast to the old-school era is night and day. This is not some rose tinted glass, it's real and overdue.
On the defending 3pters, tksense said it well. The logic for 3pters being worth is that they are further away and in principle more difficult. But they're not actually harder because the rules for defending 3pters are not the same as for many closer shots. On 3pters if the shooter's momentum carries them onto the defender's feet it's a foul. Meanwhile, in the post all kinds of pushing is allowed and the defender is entitled to their vertical space. I don't have a problem with a skill-oriented game. The 90s NBA game where everyone tried to postup also got boring because most of the post players were bad. What keeps the game interesting is if multiple play styles are close enough in viability to make it fun comparing them. The league is in a rut strategically and needs a shakeup.
IF MJ was the one who just wanted to compete every time why'd he retire 3 times? Portraying MJ as some sort of humble dude....bruh. And you tell me you don't look at him with rose tinted glasses? If MJ is first to deny he is the goat then that means Lebron should be the goat right? Lebron is ranked 2 so if MJ admits he isnt the goat then Lebron is no 1. Or are you saying MJ denies he isnt the goat but also doesnt admit anyone is better than him? Thats like fake humility which is part of the MJ hivemind. Lebron going to different teams isnt an easier path. Whats easy about moving to a different team with a different coach and different teammates? Compare that to Jordan who basically came to the same team with the same coach and the same triangle and all the amazing players drafted or traded for by the Bulls GM. How hard is that exactly? When MJ left the Bulls he couldnt even bring the Wizards to the playoffs. Not that easy win with a new environment, huh? Especially when the Wizards GM is so bad compared to Krause. If you look at MJ's opponents and compared him to Lebron's opponents its not even a contest. Nobody even knows who the finals opponents of MJ are besides Stockton and Malone, everyone else are some unknowns and randos because Krause built the Bulls to be superior to everyone else. Like if KD stuck with GSW and never left, thats the Bulls with Pippen and Jordan. Meanwhile guys like Hakeem are stuck with busts like Ralph Sampson and drug addicts no wonder MJ 3 peated twice. Lebron switches teams because he played so long his teammates got old and washed. He spent 4 years in Miami, thats like 80% of MJ's ring season in Chicago already. He has spent 4 or more years in every team he has gone to, thats longer than MJ's second and third retirement.
I spent a minute checking various vertical numbers. So Wilt's 48" is also not official, it's just a claim. At that time NBA hadn't started systematically measuring athletic numbers yet. But did dunk on 12ft rims in college. Supposedly University of Kansas recorded his vertical at 45" in 1958. Jordan also recorded 45.5" from college, the 48" supposedly came from Olympics (can't find anymore info on it). The NBA draft combine still hasn't started measuring these in 1984 yet. Numbers aside, his hang time is visibly superior to everybody else. OTOH, I find this clip pretty funny: Bill Russell jumps OVER a guy from near the FT Line - INSANE speed and hang time!
Pretty obvious that you're not at all familiar with the NBA in the 90's or 80s. Worse competition? Just the opposite. Teams were able to retain players and build really good rosters. It's also not like there weren't any foreign players in the '90s either. The NBA was loaded with athletic guys in the '90s. Olajuwon would be the most athletic center in the NBA today - Same for David Robinson. Kemp would be the most athletic PF, Rodman the most athletic SF, Jordan the most athletic SG and Penny Hardaway the most athletic PG. You're obviously not familiar with these players but Penny Hardaway was basically a 6'7" Ja Morant with better passing skills and much better defense. Rodman was a 6'9" athletic freak with a motor that didn't quit. He could slide his feet and stay in front of any PG and he'd go muscle with the 7'0 giants of that era. He was also the most relentless rebounder in the history of the league. I saw in another post where you compared Rodman to Draymond which demonstrates that you have no idea. He's Draymond's BBIQ, but bigger, stronger, way more athletic, can guard players who are too fast for Draymond and also guard players who are too strong for Draymond and oh yeah, he'd also be the best rebounder in the league. As for long players, teams in the '80s and '90s were generally bigger than today's teams. Much harder to score in the paint back then. Not just because of the rules, but also the fact that there were usually two guys 6-10 or above on the floor defending at all times. Lots of really big backcourts too. Our '86 Rockets team is a great example - Hakeem -6'11 C, Ralph - 7'4" PF, McCray - 6'8 SF, Reid - 6'8 pg, Lloyd - 6'6" SG. That was our lineup in the '86 Finals In those same finals, we faced the great '86 Celtics - Parish -7'0 C, McHale - 6-11 PF, Bird - 6'9" SF, Ainge - 6'5 SG, DJ - 6'4 PG Look at the teams that MJ faced in the finals along with the two teams that the Rockets faced in the finals in an 8 year stretch from '90 to '98 '91 Lakers - Divacs - 7'1" C, Perkins - 6'10 PF, Worthy - 6'9" SF, Scott - 6'3 SG, Magic 6'9 pg. Huge, athletic team. One guy under 6'9". '92 Blazers - Duckworth - 7'0 C, Buck Williams 6-8 PF, Kersey - 6'-7 SF, Drexler - 6-7 SG, Porter 6-3 PG - Also very athletic and one starter under 6-7. '93 Suns - West - 6-10 C , Barkley - 6-4 PF, Dumas - 6-7 SF, Majerle - 6-6 SG, Kevin Johnson 6-1 PG - By far the smallest team MJ faced in the finals. '94 Knicks - Ewing - 7-0 C, Oakley - 6-9 PF, Charles Smith - 6-10 SF, Starks - 6-5 SG, Harper - 6-4 PG - These guys were athletic and also very strong. One of the most physical teams ever '95 Magic - Shaq - 7-1 C, H. Grant - 6-10 PF, D. Scott - 6-8 SF, Anderson - 6-6 SG, Penny - 6-7 PG - Young, super athletic and nobody under 6'6" '96 Sonics - E. Jonson - 6-11 C, Kemp - 6-10 PF, Schrempf - 6-10 SF, Hawkins - 6-3 SG, Payton - 6-4 PG - Young, athletic, big and aggressive '97 & '98 Jazz- Foster - 6-11 C, Malone - 6-9 PF, Russell - 6-7 SF, Hornacek - 6-5 SG, Stockton - 6-1 PG - Good size but highly skilled. I'm not sure what you mean by "I remember MJ was being credited for the slam dunk nowadays even high schoolers dunk the ball". Dunking predates Jordan by a whole lot. Connie Hawkins and Dr. J were doing crazy dunks in the 60's and 70's. Same with David Thompson. Dawkins was breaking backboards in the '70s. Are you under the impression that high school players couldn't dunk in the 70's?
What do you believe were Jordan's flaws as a player? Do you think that there was something that he was below average at?
Ok, let's look. LBJ finals opponents average 60.8 wins/season. MJ finals opponents averaged 61.2 wins/season. You're not familiar with the Magic Johnson Lakers? Payton/Kemp Sonics? Drexler led Blazers? Barkley's Suns from his MVP year? Most knowledgeable NBA fans certainly know who those teams. are. Do you know why casual fans don't know those teams? It's because they could never beat Jordan's Bulls.
I dont need to be familiar with old ass players. Its been 35 yrs if you think players 35 yrs ago were better than today you are just wrong. Just use logic 35 yrs ago globalization wasnt a thing and apart from fringe players vast majority of NBA players came from the US. Nowadays basketball is a global sport and everyone in the world can become an NBA player if they are good enough. There were 284M people in the US in 1984, there are 8.1B people in the world now. Just compare 284M vs 8.1B, obviously there would be better players now due to larger sample size. Just think during the OG dream team USA was beating opponents by 50. Nowadays its a close fight against multiple countries. The NBA today is a global sport unlike 35 yrs ago. What about training and technology? Sports science has come a long way in 35 yrs. People are better athletes now due to better training and nutrition. You got stuff like motion tracking, cold chambers etc even steroids today are a lot more advanced than 35 yrs ago. If those stuff dont have any impact it wouldnt have become a multi billion industry today. 35 yrs ago young MJ just played ball with his older brothers in their backyard now young Cooper Flagg been attending camps since he is 12 yrs old. Its a different era. What about tactics? Knowledge is something people have learned over time and 35 yrs is a long time to gain knowledge. Esp with analytics coaches now have more data and knowledge than ever before. This has raised the skill cap of the NBA, in the past as long as you are tall and lanky and not afraid to hit and get hit you can have a long career in the NBA. Now? You need to be tall, lanky, be mobile, have high defensive IQ and hit threes etc Its a lot harder to get in the NBA now. You can't stop progress. Players will just get better and better over time. For example as good as Lebron was in the past he isnt as dominant as Jokic is today, and even Wemby is doing things in Y2 that both Jordan and Lebron didnt do.
They average those wins against each other. Ever heard of the saying in land of the blind the one eyed man is king? The average player 35 yrs ago would be playing in China today. He wont make the cut to get into the NBA even as an undrafted will have to go to China or Europe. Thats why these statistical analysis dont make any sense they take those stats at face value like the average player 35 yrs ago is as good as the average player today. Its the equivalent of taking Sheppards college stats and assuming he would perform the exact same in the NBA.
That's funny. When the league commissioner is openly discussing how his rules impact scoring efficiency, you should understand that 36% now is easier than 36% in 1990. Because the league kept uping the ante on helping players get efficient at a much higher volume than nature, we have no idea what proportion of that is just players improving over the years (or if they got worse even, we wouldn't have noticed because of the rule changes dwarfing it). You want to keep running into a wall acting like such a discussion can be had purely in numbers, but if you want to focus on numbers then you have to quantify the change in scoring difficulty and apply a weight to each season. Another way you can achieve a fair outcome is by using % above league average rather than straight %. Don't think they've done that here. That's what's missing here that's making it BS.
Uh, Jordan was never credited for the dunk. Before him there was The Doctor: The Hawk: Skywalker: Chocolate Thunder: And even Glide and the Human Highlight Film made it to the NBA before Jordan.
