I do remember those Harden teams. Fox is no James Harden. I also remember guys like Lin, Parsons, and Beverly providing spacing back in those days. And that was back when teams played with two non-shooting bigs (remember those Asik-Howard minutes?). I think your first question is correct, is the improvement enough to warrant those picks. But the market value - meaning what the Kings can get from other teams - shouldn't factor into the offer. If someone else wants to overpay, you don't have to top them. I don't think the upgrade is worth it if you have to give up a bunch of assets. It's the Kings, not the Rockets, who are desperate here.
I don't understand why people are arguing FVV or Green vs Fox. The important longterm decision is if Fox is worth the max veteran extension he will command, plus other assets, and how that impacts our team long term. If we're committed to Sengun and Amen then any max guy will need to be a 3pt shooter OR be so great that we trade Sengun or Amen for a 3pt shooting star. Maybe Fox is better than FVV or Jalen but the fit with our roster is still bad and would limit our ceiling.
Have you read this thread? Pretty clear that I'm in favor of trading for Fox if we could. I've also pointed out multiple times that Green has a poison pill provision in his contract after signing his extension. It's pretty much impossible to trade him this year. As for the volume part, what that means is that most guys are taking open 3s when they get them. If Smith and Brooks have to drastically increase their volume of 3s ( to make up for a reduction in attempts by FVV and zGreen), then their percentage is going to go way down. Neither of those guys can create a 3 pt shot on their own. Does that make sense? Those two guys are getting most all of their 3 pointer on open 3s. Generating more open threes isn't easy. If it were, then then a guy like Luke Kennard would be getting 15 to 20 attempts per game rather than the 4.3 that he is getting. That was the genius of Harden. He was the reason that the Rockets could hang with the elite shooting Warriors. They were way better than us from behind the arc but they couldn't generate the number of open 3s that the Rockets could. That advantage is what swung the math in our favor and kept us in games with possibly the best shooting team in history. That strategy still works, you just need to go find a prime Harden equivilent.
How is Fox not a fit? If he provides efficient high volume scoring and a goto guy, how is that not a fit.? We add Fox and we lose what? FVV's 50% ts%? Do you believe that FVV is causing opponents to change their defense?
Sabonis takes 2 threes a game dude. Even if he is shooting 100% on 3 he wouldnt make a difference because of his low attempts. Sac team is 13-19 because nobody on their team shoots the 3 well and they are all bad at defense except Keon Ellis who for some reason Brown didnt play much. Keegan Murray 30% Huerter 31% Derozan 29% Sacramento is like the Rox if they were bad at D. The fact they are even 13-19 is testament to how good both Sabonis and Fox are cuz the rest of their team is garbage apart from Keon Ellis and Malik Monk lol. With a supporting cast like that they should have been the worst team in the West like NOP. Fox isnt an elevating star. What he is is a really good efficient volume scorer while being an above average playmaker, and he is doing that with garbage teammates who cant shoot 3s and all clog the paint. How many games the Rockets lost by less 10 pts or less? If we had Fox 57% TS instead of FVV 50% TS then all those losses would have been wins. Fox isnt a top 10 player in the league, but if you are just talking about volume efficient scoring I'm sure he is in the top 10. The other holes in his game we have Sengun, Amen, Jabari and co. to compensate. He also plays to the strength of our coaching staff cuz Ime is a defensive genius and an offensive dunce. Ime will be able to hide Fox on defense or get Fox to play better defense more than he can make FVV and JG good offensive players.
Look it up yourself. Don't make excuses for Fred and Jalen taking the most 3's. It's ridiculous. Even if they were the best 3 PT shooters on the team they aren't good enough. We shouldn't settle for below ave shooters as our starting guards, and shouldn't be paying Jalen even more next year if he keeps this up again for his season averages.
That's just flat out not true though, offenses that run through C's are notoriously difficult to grasp. I don't believe you can trade your PG and expect to be up and running quickly. He's been our floor general two years. If trades can significantly reduce chemistry, then this trade would set back our chemistry. Wishful thinking imo. This is a team and organization that's been building for years, everything is organized and exceeding preseason expectations. Can't just hope talent makes up the difference, NBA history is a graveyard of teams who tried that.
A lot of this comes down to what level player you believe the Rockets will be able to trade for over the next couple of seasons. First - the Rockets are not the only team with a lot of assets to move, the Spurs and Thunder are two teams with a lot of appeal and assets. The Orlando Magic are another team that could conceivably offer a lot for a player. I would argue that the Spurs are more likely to be the choice for a young elite perimeter player because of Wemby and OKC because of their front office and how good they are. So - even if a top 10 player in the league comes available, there is a real chance the Rockets are either outbid or the player or their agent forces a trade elsewhere. With that in mind - when you look at the landscape of the league, there are not a lot of guys likely to be forcing a trade in the next 12 months. Granted, things can always change - but the best-looking bets are Fox, Booker and possibly Ball - maybe Cade Cunningham. At this point Ball and Cunningham are pure speculation and there is no basis for believing they will be available outside of they are on bad teams. So - that leaves Fox - who may well end up in San Antonio to play with Wemby as his preference. He is from Houston though, and the Rockets have compelling players and picks. As for the question of how good Fox is - I he isn't a top 10 player in the league, I think he is a top 25 player though. From a purse scoring position, he could potentially be a top 5-10 option, as he right now is in the top 10 for scoring and was last year as well. He needs to shoot better from 3 to really become an offensive machine, which is what the Rockets need. I think with the Rockets, it comes down to what the relative cost for trading for Fox - If the Rockets could get Fox for Reed Sheppard or Jabari Smith and the Rockets 2025 and Rockets 2027 pick, would you do it? Steven Adams would likely need to be thrown in for filler. I think I would do that type of deal - and then maybe reach out to the Nets about Cam Johnson as a rotational piece and shooter. ....... these are all hard questions to ask, but exist because the Rockets lack a franchise player - and getting one in trade that leads you to a title is very, very difficult.
Just tell Ime to give the shots to someone else, no one is going to fight you about it. It's past the point of being Green's fault, time for Ime to put a leash on the shot selection. This idea of giving them freedom on offense as a motivator to play defense is toxically stupid. We don't have a good enough lead playmaker to give them that much freedom.
Ime will do as he wants. He doesn't change in that regard. I guess I can't really blame Jalen for being a below average shooter. I blame the organization for gifting him a big contract when he hasn't improved his shooting as a shooting guard, and letting him shoot as many 3's as he wants..
I think there's a close to 1% chance that Fox has a better career than Sengun or Amen. I'm not trading any of them for Fox even right now, nevermind in their prime. We're not desperate for that level of talent. It would just be nice to have another player in that talent range who's more of a scorer. Decent option but no one was talking about him last year and they'll be talking about someone else next year. We might lose out on a bidding war here or there. Ultimately it won't matter if we got the talent 1 year earlier or later, from next season we probably have a ten year contention window open.
Actually, I already understand how volume effects percentages. I was asking if you did. Obviously, you don't. I explained it a few posts above, check it out. I'm making excuses for FVV in a thread where I've been lobbying to replace him? Ok, makes sense. Who are the players that we are going to replace them with? I've made the case for Fox. Who do you think we need? How do you propose to get them? I personally wouldn't have given Green that extension but now it's done. Because of that, he and Sengun both have a poison pill provision attached to them and are impossible for the Rockets to trade this season. I think most everyone on the board would love a couple of high volume 40% shooters in the backcourt. Of course, so would most every team in the league. How do you propose we get those guys? For better or worse, we are where we are with the roster. Is there something you think the Rockets should do or are you just complaining?
You do know that in terms of playstyle, Sengun's closest comp in this league isn't Jokic but rather Sabonis, right? So even if you are correct that players need to adjust to a playmaking center, this adjustment wouldn't apply to Fox.
1) I think @aelliott made my point much more eloquently 2) I do think the team identity should focus on defense + transition buckets + 2nd chance points (based on hustle and offensive rebounding) 3) I am a proponent of acquiring Fox IF FVV + a few more assets are ok 4) I do not think the Kingz are interested in dealing Fox after firing Brown UNLESS Fox absolutely demands out (possible!) 5) One of my ideal, but realistic scenarios RN Trade #1: FVV + 2027 HOU FRP + 2029 HOU FRP (top 5 protected) [or some other combo of draft picks] for Fox + Trey Lyles Lyles would be Tari insurance Trade #2: HOU - BRK - TOR BRK: Brown (TOR) + Tate (HOU) + 2031 HOU FRP (top 5 protected) + 3 SRPs Nets dump salary for the upcoming off-season & add to pick war chest. Tate is bought out and signs with hometown Cavs. TOR: Brooks (HOU) + Adams (HOU) Raps get a true 6-Gawd, but lose another in Olynyk. Adams is filler, but can be a solid add for Raps. HOU: Cam Johnson (BRK) + Olynyk (TOR) Htown leans into transition defense with some added 3 point shooting Sengawd + Shooters: Holiday - Sheppard - Cam Johnson - Lyles - Sengawd (+Olynyk) Alpi in post with shooters a la 94-95 Rox HaTOWq Squad: Fox - Green / Cam W - Amen - Tari - Bari Attack passing lanes, get steals, harass ball handlers (giggity), & crash offensive glass (esp Amen, Tari, & Cam). Get buckets lineup: Fox - Amen / Cam W - Cam Johnson - Tari - Olynyk Edit: prolly have to send Cam or Reed to Kings after reading more about likely King (ransom) demands for Fox IF he becomes available
This is like watching a drunk driver run someone over, then watch him as he backs up to run then over again and again for hours. At some point: where the F are the cops? The kid needs a heavier hand. He does what he's told, he works hard, he'll listen. Ime has to start passing 3PA from the backcourt to Jabari.
Acquiring both Fox and Johnson would make a great deal of sense, and would probably improve our offense significantly without costing a whole lot of defense (depending on who we gave up to get them). Both players I think are capable of buying into Ime's culture and playing solid-average D.
They run a totally different offense, one that not any coach can run. Sorry but you couldn't pick a worse example than a team practically running a Princeton offense to call easy to adopt. I'd love to run that offense been advocating forever that it would be just as good for Amen/Green as it was for Fox but realistically Udoka is not capable of running it. That's why we need a lead offensive assistant.
Yes I understand volume effects percentages. I also know there are 13 players who take more 3's than Fred and Jalen who all shoot better. In fact, 6 of them shoot over 40%, and 10 of them shoot over 35%. One of those players is Beasley. I'd like to replace Jalen with him and Fred with Fox, but then we will lose some defense and will have to give up too much for both. So, if I had a choice I'd pick Beasley, who has taken 50 more 3's than Jalen and Fred and shoots at 41.8%. Fred won't feel the need to take so many 3's with Beasley at SG. Fred is great on defense, and we can still use Amen, Holiday, or even Sheppard down the road if he develops to fill in for Fred. Cam and Holiday can also fill in for Beasley in spurts.
Ehh - I'll take the over on Fox having a 1% chance of having a better career than Sengun or Amen. Fox has already made an All NBA team and is entering his prime - he turned 27 in the last week or so..... he has averaged: 25, 23, 25, 27 and 26 points per game the last 5 seasons. I think it is certainly possible one or both of Sengun and Amen have a better career than Fox, but neither of them are better than Fox right now, and there are no guarantees. The Rockets do not have a 10 year window - not unless a true superstar player emerges. The Rockets are not going to be able to pay all of these guys in the next few years. A 10 year window is MASSIVE. The Rockets aren't even really contenders at this point, and may or may not ever be with this group. There is somewhat of a shelf life on this group because of the current contract rules in the NBA.
I mean market value just means what the Rockets need to pay to outbid everyone else. And the Kings aren't desperate since they will have multiple suitors with or without the Rockets. 27yr olds who have made All-NBA teams and a top-5 scorer are easy to dump regardless of how some people here thinks he's minor upgrade to FVV. So really if the Rockets are to trade for him, they're going to pay either a big package or a humongous package. I would lean towards trading for him if it's the former, not so much for the latter. As for spacing around Harden, he played with a traditional PF before the D'Antoni/Ryan Anderson days. If you port that to current day Rockets hypothetically with Fox, he'd have Brooks, Jabari, Tari, Reed and either FVV or Jalen on the court with him. And there's reason to believe Jalen/FVV would look much better when not having to create for themselves and just take catch and shoot 3s in such a scenario. The Rockets today would have the same type of spacing as the early Harden days, given that Amen/Sengun are both non-shooters.
