I dunno. You can break down human survival to a pretty primitive level when you get down to it. Humans can be pretty brutal in order to survive. There were some pretty crazy things that some Native American tribes did to settlers who invaded their lands and threatened their tribes with violence and disease. I guess it’s just the matter of looking at what level of survival the Palestinians were at and are at now to understand why they might have young men especially who are ripe for being indoctrinated and weaponized to brutal violence. There’s sort of a scale of violence in relation to privilege. On the far end scale I’d say the Nazis were like a 10 out of 10. Meaning brutally violent and extreme while also being quite privileged in relation to human history of suffering. Then maybe on the low scale you have primitive tribes who had brutal methods of dealing with threats or perceived threats. Maybe the Neanderthals are a 2 out of 10. Where are we putting the Hamas fighters at in this scale is probably a good question to consider in relation to their privilege vs their brutality to survive. IMO I have understanding by not sympathy for a typical Hamas fighter. I have sympathy for an innocent Palestinian who wants nothing to do with Hamas but is caught up in the brutality. I have no sympathy or understanding for the Hamas leadership who are sitting fat and rich in Qatar and are just using death and brutality as means to an end for their own personal benefit. I take issue with people who conflate all three of those personas to try and make a political point.
The goal of Hamas isn't "human survival". Their goal is to kill all Jews. They didn't attack the music festival and rape, behead, and kidnap teenagers so that they could survive. They did it to kill all Jews. Their written purpose is to kill all Jews. It's in their charter. I don't understand how people can be so blind to that. And I keep seeing people here posting about Israel committing "genocide". When Israel includes Arab citizens in their nation, even holding gov't positions, that's not genocide. When Israel warns their enemy's civilians before an attack, that's not genocide. When IDF sends troops into an Arab hospital, and they ignore the civilians and shoot the soldiers, that's not genocide. ...but when the explicit goal of Hamas is to kill all Jews.... well, that's genocide. How do people not see this?!?!
They may not want to actually fight, but the bigger question is how many of them are ok with Hamas fighting a war? What percent that is who knows. That said, on the day of Oct 7th, when these POS Hamas terrorists brought back hostages and were parading them around practically every single person was cheering. They were spitting on and hitting these hostages. These young Gazan kids are taught from the time they can walk to despise Jews. That they're animals and the only good Jew is a dead jew. So it's probably a VERY high percentage of Palestinians who have no problem with Hamas fighting the war that they want (and that they support).
So you did the exact thing that I said later in that post that bothers me that people do to make a political point. Again.. there are three categories here: -Normal Palestinian Civilians who aren't cutting off heads of Jews that are just unfortunate enough to have been born in Palestine -Hamas or Hamas adjacent fighters/terrorists -Hamas Leadership, funders, and propagandists... most of which is sitting fat, happy, rich, and safe in Qatar Lets stop conflating all three in order to make a political point please? ... But yes, at a human level survival can become brutal, but there can be PERCIEVED survival that really isn't that dire that also breeds brutality. Even when people THINK they are at risk, they are susceptible to sanctioning brutal violence for their actual or perceived survival. There's a scale here that requires nuanced thinking, and evaluation. No Palestinians are not in the same primitive survival mode that let's say... a violent Native American tribe would have had hundreds of years ago with settlers attacking them. But that doesn't mean their conditions are good, and the HAMAS FIGHTERS are coming at this with a completely unjustified brutality like with the Nazi's who were a bunch of privileged sh$ts. I just don't understand why there's no nuance here, and you guys continue to try and force sides here. Hamas has committed atrocities yes. Netanyahu... ALSO has committed atrocities, and he has the ability to achieve justice WITHOUT brutality but chooses it anyways. Many things can be true at the same time. Hamas needs to be brought to justice, and dismantled. Netanyahu needs to be kicked out of office and Israel needs reforms to corruption in it's political system to keep criminals from gaining power to take advantage of these conflicts... and the global world order needs to force Israel and whoever is left to lead Palestine into accepting a two state solution with deep incentives to NOT attack each other or steal their lands.
Those are some wild generalizations there. If in a hypothetical scenario where let's say.... Trump attacked Mexico, and Mexico retaliated, do you think it would be fair for Mexicans to say that well this Dobro guy is American so he must support Trump's position, and because he hears everyday in our media that Mexicans are bad rapists that obviously we shouldn't hesitate to bomb the town I'm in and kill me as a civilian?? Or you could put yourself in a scenario where you live in New York in Brooklyn, and Joe Biden is planning on attacking Russia, and Russia is planning a counter attack. In Russia it's probably perceived that Brooklyn is a haven for "Woke" mind viruses so Russia sells their people that bombing Brooklyn means we are only really attacking people who are indoctrinated. Do you still think that's a smart and ethical approach to justifying where and who we carpet bomb??? If the shoe was on the other foot and it was you in the crosshairs for a military decision that Joe Biden, and a bunch of Woke Liberals made, do you think Russia should also punish you because you happen to live in Brooklyn, and probably didn't even vote for Joe Biden??? Let's just think about this Sh$t a little more please.
Probably - his control of Syria is not as strong as some seem to think. He also will do virtually anything to stay in power. He is a bad guy - and seems to be largely inept as well.
Oh, I agree. that's why I was careful to say "Hamas" and not "Palestinians". I don't think I conflated them. Hamas didn't conduct their Oct. 7th attack to survive. They did it because they want to kill all Jews. You're right - their conditions are terrible. That's what happens when your gov't steals foreign aid and sells it, denying their own people of much needed food, water, and medical supplies. That's what happens when your gov't stores weapons in a school. If your gov't does that and the school get bombed, you should be mad at the gov't, not the bombers. How do you propose that he does this? How can you have peace against an enemy whose only goal is to kill all of your people?
Couple of things - while those scenes were disgusting - you can't say what percentage of Palestinians support Hamas actions or don't. A lot of people also were against it - saying they thought this was going to be bad for them and they just want peace. Second - you can't punish people / kill them for being hateful. It's a terrible thing but they can't lose their lives for that. People on here saying they voted for Hamas therefore they are legit targets - is the EXACT SAME JUSTIFICATION they use to hurt Israeli citizens - it's the same excuse the 9/11 Hijackers used. So I ask that you really consider what you are saying here.
So you literally have psychic superpowers to see into the hearts and minds of over 14 million people? You know for a fact all 14 million of them are radicalized terrorists that need to be exterminated? Seems like a pretty wild generalization to me.
Reading is one thing and comprehension is another. Where did I say "ALL 14 million of them are radicalized terrorists"?? I specifically said, "there's a very high percentage of Palestinians who have no problem with Hamas fighting the war". So in your mind high percentage ="ALL"??
If the US attacked Mexico, it would be completely ethical for Mexico to retaliate and attack Camp Pendelton, or Edwards Air Force Base, or Fort Liberty, or Camp Lejeune, or Fort Cavasos, etc. That's the point. It isn't Israel that has chosen for Hamas to embed itself within the population of Gaza, it is Hamas (who have done it) and the people of Gaza (who have allowed them to do so).
How about if we look at it this way: most Palestinians hate Jews. They're taught, at an early age, to hate Jews. If you look at all the recent angry protests of Palestinians in New York and other places in the US recently... ya gotta know that the people who are actually in Palestine, are mostly feeling the same way (or maybe stronger). There are some Palestinians who aren't filled with hatred toward Jews, but they're probably in the minority. That being said...just because many of them hate Jews doesn't mean they deserve to die. There's lots of people all over the world who have hatred in their heart; doesn't mean they deserve to die. But the people who act out in violence against Jews because of their hatred should be punished. And those, such as Hamas and Hezbollah (and others), who take action to kill, rape, kidnap, and behead as many Jews (military and citizens) as possible, must burn.
There are plenty of Jews who hate the Palestinians, and act out violence against them. In the west bank alone, settlers murder palestinians and face not even a trial for it. Or an investigation. They are not punished. What you are saying is that if Hamas commits a crime, then all Palestinians can be punished. This is like saying if the US army commits a crime, then all Americans can be punished - which is the exact logic used by 9/11 terrorists. As soon as you bucket people into "them" you are thinking the way ISIS thinks. Think about that for a moment. Israel didn't have to carpet bomb Gaza and kill a hundred thousand people and displace most of the country to defeat Hamas. There were other ways. Other options to get the hostages back in one piece. And there are ways to take out Hamas. The goal is not to punish, it is to ensure the peace and security of Israel. What happened was not that, it was genocide. The people claiming that to be false are just lying to push an agenda. What was done in Gazan is a stain on the whole world. On Israel for betraying the memory of the Holocaust with this action and for the world to sit idly by and do nothing and let it happen. This was not done to ensure Israel's security, it was done to secure more land for a greater Israel.
Any jews that act out in violence against Palestinians should be punished. Anybody who ever acts out in violence should be punished (aside from self defense). But the focus of this discussion the governments' actions. I have not said that. That is not at all what I'm saying. Israel has not indiscriminately "carpet bombed" Gaza. Israel has attacked military targets. It's tragic that civilians are always killed in war, but when Hamas hides their military staff and supplies among civilians, even more civilians get killed. Your anger at this should be focused on Hamas, not Israel. If Hamas kept their military people and equipment in military bases, Israel would not be attacking any civilian areas, and the Palestinian death count would be much lower. Such as....? I think you don't understand the meaning of the word "genocide" because Israel is absolutely NOT committing genocide.
