I think there is a fairly important context missed in ANY of these metrics based conversations - that the role you are asked to play matters quite a bit. That's why big centers tend to have better efficiency stats when their role is simply to grab the ball and dunk it - the Clint Capela/Derek Lively role. Realistically we know those guys are not more offensively skilled than other players but the role and quality of the person feeding those passes (Harden and Luka being the best of the modern era) also impact those numbers. That's why when I see Jalen statistical comparison I think we start to get too far from reality. For instance, Jalen's role has shifted 3 times in pretty significant ways each year: - Year 1 they asked him to be a Harden type of primary creator despite the fact he was never a playmaker before. They even tried to make him and famously KPJ PGs at times and....it did NOT go well. -By season 2 they had abandoned that but Silas continued to play 5 out and let Jalen be a primary on ball creator but the creativity was lacking because he was expected to create without any offensive motion on most plays. Screens were only there to serve mismatches on switches - they weren't really used to get Jalen open. Then KPJ got hurt/got suspended and Jalen was the ONLY weapon Silas used(we still weren't using Jabari OR Sengun as much) so defenses just collapsed on him. - In Season 3, Jalen role moved more to an off ball player but again this was a new role and now the ball was coming to him either from a real traditional PG or from his big since the offense started to run through the post. That meant how Jalen got scoring opportunities changes. Additionally Udoka held him accountable to defensive focus and so he spent a good part of the season getting yanked when he didn't take it seriously. It made him a better player and by the end of the year he was actually contributing defensively but for a rhythm shooter like Jalen, I think there were real impacts to his efficiency in the adjustment period. ....now I'm not saying Jalen is deeply misunderstood - the numbers are still important to point out Jalen needs to become a more reliable version of himself - but I think when we start comparing Jalen's numbers to others, we miss out on the context of how we used, the quality of team around him at the time, and how he has had to learn new roles every year which ALL have had real impacts to his consistency. To his credit - he has gotten noticeably better in a number of areas - it just remains to be seen if a more stabilized version of the offense allows him to finally settle in and improve the biggest knock on his game - his shooting efficiency. I'm optimistic this is the year if Udoka isn't going to tinker with the offense significantly and I think Reed's gravity as a shooter will be a roster addition that should given Jalen a little more breathing room because teams typically try to keep Jalen out of rhythm and are okay taking their chances with most of our shooters and that becomes a lot harder to do if Jabari and Reed are lined up on the perimeter now. No shade to FVV, but Reed is a much better fit on this offense long term (provided he can hold up defensively).
I don't like him and I don't want him on the team. I've never liked him. He's an inefficient chucker. May be a nice guy off the court, I don't care. I think he has earned what I wrote. That's my opinion. If he was drafted 28th no one would be so committed to him and they definitely wouldn't be okay with him getting the minutes he has. Being the 2nd pick has warped everyone's perception of him. He doesn't deserve anywhere close to a max contract. Period.
Hey even if most all your takes are wrong, that's your opinion. But I stand by what I said. You like many want to push people's buttons. Period. I myself look forward to this year and seeing the whole team improve under Ime. Maybe just then, some people will stop with the ish. Go Rox!
I'll go one step further, there are several people here who don't act like fans of either the team, the management or most of the players. I genuinely think the only thing they're a fan of is their own opinion, nothing more and nothing less. They're not fans at all.
They won't stop with it, we could win a chip but if Jalen's the MVP of the team they will hate every single second of it.
It's the classic case of anyone on the team starts having an improved stretch the very first game they have an off night or even a first half the game thread starts blowing up with ish. Even if they finish the game good it's the same old thing. CF use to be better than that.
I'm not nor have I ever come on here just to push people's buttons. I'm just voicing my opinion. If that pushes your buttons that wasn't my intention. This is an open forum to say what you think. I'm just saying what I think.
Personally, I think Jalen can be a very respectable starter long term but I agree that where he was drafted has COMPLETELY warped people's perception of him. The hope was Jalen could be a superstar and while I think it's very fair to say his long term ceiling is not that anymore, that's not to say he can't still be a useful player on an NBA roster and an asset on this team(a team that needs a long term SG by the way). If there was another player on this roster who can be that high level playmaker/offensive hub - I can completely see a more efficient version of Jalen just hitting shots when the ball comes to him, effectively attacking closeouts when people help off him, and him continuing to be a deadly open court player. Sengun could maybe be that player - maybe it's Reed too, maybe the more shooters we have on the floor with Jalen help him to be a more efficient version of himself because teams can't dig at Jalen's drives as easily when Jabari AND Reed are great shooters. The inefficiency comes from possessions where he is an on ball scorer but if we limit his game to just shooting when open and attacking closeouts off ball, I think it would help limit the things that sink his value....but all the knuckleheads on this board have to be willing to let go of the archetype that they had in mind for him because ultimately this is about making good use of the players on your roster - not trying to make the something they aren't...like a PG(thanks, Silas!) or a ball dominant superstar. That's the mistake of bad teams and that's why teams like the Spurs have succeeded in the past finding value from players who other teams only see limitations in.
I'm not singling you out in anyway. You're definitely not the only one. Just your suggestion was as I said, laughable and no gm would offer him that. UNLESS, he got hurt this year possibly, pulled some stupid Porter type ish or all the sudden woke up and was not anywhere near the player he currently already is. Again, I think they'll all improve this year, we make the playoffs and a lot of us sit back and enjoy the success of them all. Done with the back and forth tonight.
Agree to disagree. Green's most important trait is a on ball trait and that's collapsing defenses off the dribble with elite separation ability. That's his elite trait. So many players of his position who would be better off ball options. I don't know if superstar is a ceiling that Green has passed by because of three years of his age 19-22 seasons. It's still within the realm of possibilities.... Lower end of possibilities definitely. Like less than 10% chance. But Green being a successful on ball player doesn't mean he can only be a superstar or bust. He can merely be Donovan Mitchell level. A star on ball dominant guard.
"Merely"? Mitchell is a superstar. If Green reaches his level, I'll be ecstatic. What do you think is his ceiling as "superstar"? LeBron?
Id say it's the step above Mitchell with guys like Ant. I phrased it poorly. I'm not implying Green has reached close to Mitchell yet. He needs a genuine leap this year for that.
Less Lebron, more SGA, Antman, Jalen Brunson type level. Very very few players are Lebron level (like LeBron and one other) but there's plenty of evidence of people who weren't setting the world on fire in their first few seasons but are now in MVP arguments...
I don’t know about that. Let’s say Jalen is still inconsistent this coming season, he may be willing to sign an extension less than max, say 20m a year. Then if he makes a leap into stardom the next season, wouldn’t that be even better? Provided he’s not traded before that of course.
Those 3 guys are top 10 players. SGA was in MVP conversation. Both Ant and SGA broke out in their 3rd season. Only Brunson can be said to be a late bloomer. Not saying Green can't break out later. Just that the 3rd season is usually the most crucial for star players to burst into the scene. Mitchell is probably top 15-20. Like I said, if Jalen reaches Mitchell's level, I'll be extremely happy.
SGA won 22 games his third year. He averaged 24 ppg. Jalen Green in his second year averaged 22 ppg on a 22 win team. You don't think if he had continuity into his third year under the Silas regime not being asked to exert energy on defense nearly as much as under Ime he couldn't average that? I'm not sure how much more different third year SGA would look like under Ime level expectations SGA broke out into true stardom in his fifth year where his volume scoring was on a team with actual accountability and expectations. These are just things to consider. It's not that I think there is a good chance(above 50%) he reaches the level of SGA. It's just with some context it might not be as far fetched if Green starts doing high volume scoring on 50+ win teams
Was looking at some Jalen highlights from last season and all his supporters are right...he does things that no one else on the team can do. Best thing for the Rockets is Jalen actually putting it all together because he has star level ability. Jalen playing at his peak is the best player on this team. All that said, it means nothing without actual production. This is a big season for him and the team as far as picking a direction.
