Cam definitely has very useful talents to help a good NBA team. Just saying for "superstar" the creative self creation talent in half court sets usually sets apart really good role players and borderline stars and the "superstars".
I don't think you're quite grasping though the significance of his shooting. His peers may be good at other things but are they one of the best ever in NBA history for their age? Do we have a shot blocker who's projecting to be one of the best ever? A perimeter defender? A finisher or passer like that? Taking an exhausting number of 3's per minute on a serious team at age 19 and making roughly league average is worth more than just "yeah he's a good shooter but". That's a historically significant achievement, something we should now watch like hawks. I don't see the Crawford comparison at all, which is what is helping me sense your radar is off. Crawford had great handles, was a hybrid guard and for his career was a just below average shooter. Whitmore is shooting, closeouts and transition. Whitmore is as good a shooter at 19 as Crawford was as a veteran. Whitmore fights stupidly on defense. Crawford did not show any fight at all defensively (which is what limited him to being a 6th man). I think you want him to fit into a certain description of a SG but he's not going to fit so be careful not to miss out on the positives just because you're busy comparing him to a template. A sweet shooting "power guard" who's willing to try hard on defense is a new model that can be very successful. The trick is: - Do you expect a 19 year old to be a better defender in their second season than their first? Almost always, yes. I trust Udoka with this. - Can we create a counter for when teams press up on him to prevent taking 3's? That's what cooled his shooting late in the season, teams knew he had no backup plan except try to bully his way to the basket. This is going to be achieved either through improved handles or a mid range jumper. - Can we please run more so that he can bulldoze teams in transition more? Aren't you tired of the "he would be amazing if he could shoot" prototype that rarely pans out? We have the opposite in Cam and I like it.
I mean Jamal Crawford could do one thing - put the ball in the bucket. So far, that's what Cam has shown. Totally different players, totally different games, but when you are a specialist, your ceiling is a role player - not matter how good you are at that one thing. I am well aware it's early in his career and I have hope he can give us more but like I said earlier in the thread, I didn't necessarily see any other growth to Cam's game in Summer League aside from "he can still put the ball in the hole" and that's concerning. But hey, let's see how it goes this year. I didn't necessarily see a lot of Cam fight on defense last year but I saw a lot of ball watching that resulted in him losing his man. Would hope to see him improve there but his defensive motor seems reluctant unless he is mad/jawing with someone and then you can see him turn it on and be aggressive. My point is - if he isn't consistently doing anything else but scoring - that's useful...but that's also not a starter. As a young player he will improve IF he puts in the effort...but let's see the evidence of him putting in the effort for things besides dunking the ball down someone's throat before we use superlatives like "best ever" - Fair?
Jamal Crawford is way underrated, dude can handle the ball and score in bunches which is a guarantee....... I would not call Crawford just a role player but a guy whose role exceeded that of any regular guy......Derrick White.
Both Cam and Green are streaky from three. The difference is that some how magically Green has a higher fg% with shots from 0-3 ft from the rim and lay up attempts which simply doesn't make sense given that a overwhelming majority of Cam's attempts at the rim are in transition or attacking close outs which are much easier attempts than the type Jalen gets because most of Jalen's attempts at the rim are attacking set half court defenses loaded up on him. Goes to show how much more talented Green is with his creative touch around the rim even though Can is significantly stronger.
I mean mainly because a salary cap with aprons is the opposite of creative. There's no creativity without risk in this salary cap structure. We give someone the wrong contract and it will take multiple picks to dump it. Multiple picks = multiple seasons of forced losing. It's not cheap. Why take a risk? Letting one player walk is far less damaging. We have 6 other elite prospects. I see what you're saying but I don't need a SG who hasn't accepted being a 6th man. When I'm going for a title I want people to know and love their roles. I just can't get behind having an expensive 6th man before we have two stars locked in. After that, we can get creative.
Ok Chief, putting the ball in the bucket is not a comparison point. All players do that and all scorers do it often. Disagree with your point about a 19 year old specialist = role player ceiling. Players that age are not supposed to be able to be NBA-calibre specialists. Kobe Bryant couldn't shoot, pass or defend in his rookie season either. He could just dribble fancy and jump high and he was selfish. T-Mac could only do dirty work his rookie season (defense, rebounding, passing role player). I think you maybe just can't see how Cam's game can be stretched out. Who thought Green would start last season as a horrendous defender and end up an average defender at the end? Nobody. Did Udoka not make Green's passing smarter, rebounding better and movement off ball smarter? He set out to expand Green's game and he did. Cam has as good a chance of doing that. You're expecting too much at 19 and not understanding the normal trajectory of improvement.
I probably have a very different view on Jalen's potential than you. But I totally agree with your take on his contract situation. Losing a guy, even a #2 pick, for nothing is far better than getting stuck with a negative asset long term. This is especially true when we have a ton of other promising young prospects in our hands we can't possibly keep them all.
Speaking of future contracts and JG, it seems to me it will go one of the following ways. 1) He plays like a max guy and therefore is awarded a big long term contract. 2) He plays like the last 3 years and is allowed to go to RFA. Many seem to feel like if JG cant cut it as a starter, he would slide into a 6th or 7th man role. In order to keep him at all beyond his rookie contract, we would have to offer him a new one. If 2) becomes reality, what kind of money does a washed starter trying to make it as a role player worth? IMO, not anything he would accept. So therefore, it seems he either earns a starter contract or he is let go. No inbetween.
Most likely. Who knows though. Perhaps he could get a 2 year prove it contract. Like 25 million per or something.
You are reading too much into my post - not sure where the baggage you are bringing into this conversation is coming from but I have been pretty clear that he has all the talent and time to figure it out. My only point is - let's not call him a star just yet - let's see how he grows this year. I don't know why you are so dead set on trying to correct me from saying it's too soon to tell on a 19 year old career trajectory. For every Kobe and Tmac there were MANY who we have long since forgot about so I'm not even sure what you are trying to prove with that point. Brandon Jennings put up 55 in his 7th game as a 20yr old rookie and...well had a long career as a role player. Brandon Roy looked like a stud as a rookie...until the knees problems caught up with him which is a similar reason why Cam fell in the draft (and before you say it, I know "medical tech is better now"). Jahil Okafor, Michael Carter Williams, and Tyreke Evans all looked strong as rookies too. Point being - I'm not going to get too high OR too low on a 19 yr old. The numbers may suggest something about Cam but the numbers also overwhelmingly point to a lot of volatility in young players with limited data points and Cam mostly watched from the bench for the first 30 games, then got clean up minutes for a bit and really only entered the rotation in the back half of the season. Let's see what he does this year with a larger sample size, with more minutes running with starters, with more minutes as part of a rotation - with a more clearly defined role. Sound good, "Chief"?
Dude I'm not sure what the point is of "let's see what he does this coming season". This is like walking into a nightclub and saying - without being prompted - you don't like loud music. Why don't we just shut down the BBS and leave a post-it note saying "just watch the coming games, no point speculating"? No one thinks he's a star right now, so I'm not sure why you're even debating on that. The post you replied to - I was making a prediction. A "too soon" prediction. What am I supposed to say to someone who replies to that saying they're not interested in making such a prediction? Just put yourself in my shoes for a second. More importantly that's not all you said. You said: That's a clear and specific prediction. I challenged it. You're STILL making predictions in your last post with comparisons to Brandon Jennings and Brandon Roy. I said my defining factor is people who hit league average on a high frequency per minute for a serious team. What does that have to do with anyone you mentioned? Don't get too high or too low it's up to you. You are clearly too low though as you've described nothing but worst case comparisons here. I'm not sure what you're mad about, Chief.
I think he was about the 4-5th youngest player in the nba last year. And one of only 2 of the youngest 8 or so to get minutes.
Also funny enough there are 2 players drafted in the top 20 this year younger than 6 of the Rockets current players.
Exactly. This perspective is so important. He's WAY ahead for the huge majority of people who were teenagers their whole rookie season.
Dude, you are having some Amelia Bedelia level misunderstandings here. When I said "My only point is - let's not call him a star just yet - let's see how he grows this year." I wasn't saying you thought he was a star TODAY but rather than you are implying that Cam will be a star since he is doing things scoring savants like Kobe and Tmac couldn't do at the same age....and my point is - it's too early to tell. ...right. In response to you ranting about how I'm underrating him so much because of his amazing scoring metrics I said he has proven he can score and that's about it and he has work to do to show he can do other things on an NBA level and then I showed you what the ceiling is for an expert bucket getter(Jamal Crawford). I'm not saying he is going to be Jamal Crawford - I'm saying one dimensional players have a relatively low ceiling so Cam has to put in the work to grow in other aspects of his game. That's not saying he is going to be Jamal Crawford and I even reiterated the exact same point in the post before that but since you need a little help here let me show you what you missed: Hopefully the 3rd time explaining that to you is a charm because I'm not wasting any more time teaching you how to read. ...see the comments above. If you paid attention to what I was actually saying, you would realize like most reasonable people do that those aren't player comparisons. Those are examples of players who had shining moments early in their career and didn't pan out. That's not comparing Cam to Brandon Jennings or Roy or Okafor or any of those guys - it's to say that you ranting about his unprecedented scoring metrics as a 19yr old with less than a half season of non garbage time minutes is a bit of an overreaction to a relatively small sample size and guys like Roy and Jennings had moments in smaller sample sizes too that would make you believe they were destined for higher ceilings than what they actually had. I don't know what in the 'hot take hell' is wrong with you, but your club analogy has no relevance here because there are lots of really great things to talk about here without resorting to dumb hot takes and overreactions....but if you think I'm going Skip Bayless with you, then you are sadly mistaken because I'm not here for that race to the bottom - hear me loud and clear, Chief?
There is the possibility that his best RFA offer is something palatable to the Rockets. If he's mediocre, he's not getting max offers from other teams ... In that case, the team matches and retains him - Or it becomes a sign and trade with assets in return. I think that's really the preferred case outside of him playing great .... it gives Jalen time to grow as a player and the team isn't paying him max dollars. He gets reward with the next contract IF he earns it.
If he is mediocre in the eyes of the Rockets FO, he is bound to seem more than that to some team somewhere. Just like their are those posters here at Clutch that see him becoming a star while others don't. For the scenario you propose to pan out, the Rockets perception of him would have to be among the highest out there for us to match the highest offer.
