They'll slander anybody to prove their point, even long term players who gave us many years of solid play.
Oh come on - EVERYTHING he’s shown indicates he’ll never be more than a role player (forget about third option). 1) He is entirely reliant on others getting him the ball so he can shoot it - he has no creation abilities whatsoever. 2) He is an extremely poor finisher around the rim and on the fast break. He has so little vertical explosion that the Rockets can’t even play him in the dunkers spot (which is absolutely where he should be when Alpi is in the post). 3) His entire offensive bag is a face-up jumper set up by another passer - he shows no ability to come off screen and shoot. 4) On defense, his lack of vertical means he’ll never be a reliable shot blocker. 5) Overall, he shows a major lack of basketball IQ - he consistently cuts at the wrong time, gets lost when switching defense is required, and fails to rotate to the right spot to ensure the ball handler can make an easy pass (this last problem was a contributing factor to Alpi’s injury - Jabari didn’t rotate to a spot so Fred could pass to him out of a trap and the ball was stolen). As I said, I think he will improve his shooting percentages, rebounding and perimeter defense but there just aren’t the building blocks for him to take a big leap - there are too many holes (not weaknesses - big gaping holes) in his game for him to ever be more than a role player.
But how much do you pay a Big Shot Bob or Big Shot Bari? Do you really want to pay these guys like superstars? Sure it’s exciting when they hit a couple of game winning shots, but most of the time they’re giving you under 10 points a game that come exclusively via other players’ gravity. That’s ok on a rookie scale but a lot less exciting when they have a big contract.
He is under rookie contract for two more years. Why worry about it now. We have plenty of time to determine what kind of contract we want to pay him.
Yeah you're probably right, but I guess that clutch factor is what truly is missing for me to accept him as already better than Bob. Either way, I'm glad he's developing nicely, we need him to get his handle together so he can terrorize people at the elbow and wing with his height and shot advantage... once he perfects those moves his improved handles will help him get to the rim with ease.
Maybe if we were talking about Battier, but even he got torched by the Kobe's, T-Mac's, and Carter's of that era. Ariza was a good starter as your 3&D wing, never even made an All-NBA Defensive team in his career.
1) so was Klay Thompson, a useful player on one of the greatest squads of all time 2) Why on earth would you take a guy with elite shooting for his size and put him in the dunker's spot? Beating him up because he doesn't do the same things as more traditional bigs kind of misses the point of why you want a guy like him in the first place. Are you going to complain how his back to the basket game sucks so therefore he is an awful big? It sounds like you are really caught up in positional archetypes. 3) Disagree - he has shown some ability here in limited opportunities but the coaches have to draw that play up and currently that's not been part of a Jalen centric or Sengun centric offense. The hope is as we start to populate the roster with multiple guys with high level offensive skills, we aren't allowing defenses the opportunity to cheat because "who cares if Tate rolls to the basket or leaks out to the 3pt line - that's a win for the defense"...but we gotta get creative offensively and as great a coach as Udoka has been, offensive creativity is not his forte. For instance, how can take advantage of Reed's speed and athleticism and Jabari's ability to shoot over smaller defenders on the mid range and BOTH player's shooting to involve them in actions screening for each other off ball? 4) Again with the positional archetypes you are following because you think that's what a PF must do. In practice a block and forcing a miss from tight defense are of little difference and again you miss the point that Jabari is switchable for 4 and sometimes 5 positions so the lack of blocks might have something to do with the fact that we are comfortable with him guarding perimeter players whereas with Sengun we are always trying to scheme him to stay closer to the basket because we know he is very bad at defending in space. Being switchable across 5 positions is just as valuable as being an elite rim shot blocker. The Warriors just spent a decade as a mini-dynasty without any high level shot blockers. 5) On the play in question - Fred waited too long to pass it forcing him to make a tougher pass through a trap because he had a window earlier but agree Jabari could have rolled to the top of the floor quicker as his man was pursuing the trap. I agree Jabari needs to improve on his positional awareness - I think he makes the right reads but completely agree he is slow to make them. I wouldn't say he is terrible, just that he needs improvement but I don't think this is stuff all that inconsistent with a lot of Sophomore non stars. All that said - I think we both likely agree - he is a role player ultimately. I think he can be a very high level one(not a max unless we are winning titles) - as I mentioned in another thread, he reminds me a lot of Klay Thompson in so far as Klay couldn't lead his team to wins consistently but he had a high enough floor overall that he was able to take advantage of opportunities created by the real stars on his team. I think that's ultimately where Jabari will land - if you leave him open he will hit the shots, he will get better at making the reads to the right places contextually, if he has a size mismatch he can take advantage of it by shooting over smaller players, he rebounds well, he plays tough defense and forces guys into contested shots - all those add up to a role player glue guy and surrounded by the right players, he could even be a fringe all star if the team wins a lot similar to Klay but the reality is Klay likely never would have been an All Star if he weren't playing off Steph Curry, Draymond, Durant, Iggy, etc.
Oh com on - EVERYTHING listed here is indicative of his youth and if you evaluated 21 year old Giannis, Kawhi, etc you'll see that there is room for improvement. 1. He tightened his handle dramatically from year 1 to year 2, so he has shown he can and will keep improving here. We also saw him get more post up opportunities to abuse switches onto smaller guards and he shoots right over them, that's still creation even if he's not breaking down defenses in the PnR as the ball handler or whatever. 2. He got a lot stronger from year 1 to year 2, and explosion, finishing at the rim, playing in that dunker's spot are all those that will benefit from added time in the weight room. 3. He doesn't come off screens much, but you are missing those pull up transition 3s he likes and the mid range post game I mentioned. He also does well slipping screens here and there. 4. He seems to do really well as the weak side rim defender, but to pretend he'll never increase his vertical or strength is silly. 5. I can only assume you're joking if you're saying a 21 year old is stuck with their BBIQ for the rest of their career. That's the thing that is basically guaranteed to improve, especially under this coaching staff compared to his rookie season. I agree it doesn't currently look like he'll be a superstar, but that's a bar basically none of our core 7 have reached. Even Sengun, who is my favorite prospect of the group, has shown fringe all star status, but not MVP status. The good news is, they're all really young, and outside of Tari, I don't think any of them look 100% settled into who they'll be the rest of their career. Out of the 7, Jabari feels like the one who has a very nice floor as an elite role player, but given how much he improved in one year, I don't see how you can say for sure he won't develop a better IQ and athleticism moving forward.
I mean Jalen had the best 15 game stretch since prime Harden on the Rockets. He has shown arguably the highest ceiling but still a worrisome floor due to his inconsistency but I believe his floor is still higher than Bari.
Yep too inconsistent. This will be his 4th year, if he doesn't explode, he'll probably just be D'Angelo Russell
I would say Alpi is closest to being a bonafide all star because he was close to making an all star game, but Jalen is behind him. Those late season explosions are the flashes I was hoping for, and now we all want to see him put it together for a full season. I think Jalen and Amen are 1/2 as far as ceilings, but that's just based on the eye test for me. I think Jabari and Alpi have the highest floors though. I definitely don't feel strong convictions about floors or ceilings though in general. They're all way too young to know what they'll add to their games. They also will probably not all be on our team forever. If Jabari was playing in Denver (say a straight swap for MPJ for the hypothetical), he'd fit in so nicely in that role. If he was playing let's say in Indiana, I think he'd be feasting right now even more because of Haliburton and their spacing.
I'm mostly on the same page as you that people are criminally underrating Jalen but I don't know if his floor is higher than Bari right now because of the inconsistent defensive focus. This year will really clarify what is a remnant of just never being taught/held accountable in the Silas years vs a long standing problem for Jalen's career. I tend to agree that he continues to show more and more growth and his floor may very well be higher than Bari if he can sustain some of the positive things he brought to his game in the last half of the season - even positive things he did outside of the "Player of the Month" run where he may had a bad offensive game but still did things defensively that made a difference in the game's outcome. His ability to contribute outside of his scoring contribution is really the swing skill for him - getting tough rebounds, causing turnovers as a defender, making smart plays even if they don't necessarily turn into assists, etc.
I think floors are underrated - it's the old "you are only as strong as your weakest link" talking point. Luka was frankly the best player in the Finals this year but because Boston had an overall higher floor because their 6/7 man rotation was all solid, they easily won a title. You can say the same thing about recent winners - guys like Jokic and Curry have been otherworldly over the last decade but their teams that won titles all had a high floor with 5 solid guys who didn't leave you taking too much off the table when you put player X in the rotation. Honestly that's the culture shift I would like to see in Houston - let's leave the old player centric style of playing (passed to Harden from Tmac, Yao, Stevie, Hakeem) and let's see what 5-7 really solid guys can do even if none of them is a top 10 player. And hey - maybe you end up with that Top 10 player via trades if it doesn't work out but I agree with above that neither Alpi nor Jalen seems like they will ever be top 15 players...so let's see how far you can take a team of reall solid guys all playing as a team and exploiting teams with higher ceilings but also lower floors.
These are the type of posts that makes this site always worth coming back to. Even though you have to wade through the sewage of posts from people like bobbythegreat to get there. Still worth it.
From day one, Klay could shoot off the move and from around picks. He was always elite at moving without the ball. Klay has also been a better catch and shoot player from day one. Jabari isn't in the same league as a 2nd year Klay Thompson. When Alpi is working the post (which is by far our most efficient and flexible offensive possession), I want a 4 who can both receive the kick out and shoot or will cut to the dunkers spot and throw it down (or at least finish at a high percentage). Jabari can't do the 2nd - half the time he doesn't even recognize the opportunity to cut and the other half he gets stopped at the rim. The supposed advantage of having a big who can shoot is being able to burn teams 2 ways. Right now, he's more like an immature Matt Bullard than anything else, and he isn't as deadly as Bull was when wide open. Jabari has no offensive bag and if he did, I guarantee the coaches would draw up plays for him. To blame his lack of offensive skills on coaching is ridiculous - we have multiple guys on the team who have been coached by the same guys and have shown much more in the way of offensive skills. He has a face up jumper and occasionally attempts a turnaround from the midrange, which is an outrageously inefficient shot. He doesn't even really set screens for the team (which makes sense because he's about a good a screener as Christian Wood) and his ability to make the right read for passing is nonexistent, so I don't see any future where he's going to run a two-man game with Reed. As far as Jabari shooting over smaller players, he can't really do that either - I saw him get blocked by guards multiple times last year. His lack of athleticism means he plays a lot smaller than his height - going back to your crack at me about expecting him to have a post game, I wouldn't expect a big to necessarily focus on this anymore but I would expect them to have a baby hook and maybe a drop step to take advantage when smaller guys are switched on to them. Again, Jabari doesn't, which makes him unable to punish smaller defenders. Jabari is mostly switchable between 3s and 4s (and some slow 2s) - I think this aspect of his game has been grossly exaggerated. I watched Chuck Hayes for his entire career with the Rockets - now that was a guy who could guard 4-5 positions at an elite level. Jabari isn't even close to that and he doesn't really have the tools to become that either. So to be an elite player, he needs to have a bigger defensive bag as well - which for him as a tall player should include shot blocking. But he doesn't have the physical gifts (quick, explosive jumping, timing) or the ability to anticipate when someone is going to shoot. That being said, the shot blocker mention was more about him becoming a top 3 player in the Rockets rotation. It's more an example of a small gap among many gaps rather than proof on its own of his mediocrity. I disagree - he's out and out terrible at making reads and moving without the ball - it's not just his slowness, but often a total lack of recognition. That is an awful set of characteristics to have when you can't break down anyone by yourself on offense. There were so many symbiotic relationships on that Warriors squad that its hard to fathom what they'd be like if you took away any one guy (other than Durant maybe). I think you're underestimating the many ways Klay both directly and indirectly helped them win, but I'd agree that his career would be less spectacular if he didn't play alongside Curry (all time shooting gravity) and Draymond (elite defender who was often elite in his playmaking). When a team is rebuilding (and the Rockets are still rebuilding until they show this collection of talent can get to the playoffs and compete), it's important to get move off players once it's clear that they're not going to deliver the value of their contract or the value of their future contract. Right now, because of his draft position, Jabari's looking at a cap hold of just under $31M after his 4th year. I don't see any realistic path to him becoming a player worth that kind of money. He has so many gaps in his basketball skills and many of these gaps are things that simply don't improve a lot for any player - he's never going to jump higher or quicker nor is he going to become a super-coordinated athlete. That leaves him with an extremely low ceiling. So I don't see a future for him on this team and would rather trade him to get someone who offers significantly more on the court.
Just to be clear, your opinion is that just turned 21 Jabari Smith has an extremely low ceiling, you don't see a future for him on this team, and none of his current issues are fixable? How would you say Jabari improved from year 1 to year 2, if at all? And what is your opinion of him as a defender? I'm just curious.
I'm not going to even both responding point by point because it would take all night to correct all the places where you completely distorted my points to grandstand on your own ego trip. I believe the term is called "making a strawman argument" and if that was your goal, then I applaud you because that was pretty textbook. ....here is just the very first example - you said: ...and I responded ...but then your response to me was: ....so to recap - you bash Jabari because he is completely reliant on others getting him the ball with no self creation, then I bring up another player(Klay) completely reliant on others without self creation abilities, and your response is that Klay is WAY better because he is a better catch and shoot player even though by definition that is a player who requires others to get him the ball and create opportunities for him. It's like you are arguing just to argue. Needless to say, you lost the forrest from the trees repeatedly here(like for instance you lecturing us all on why I'm wrong and why he isn't elite when I clearly stated I thought Jabari was a role player) and I get a strong whiff that you need to feel like you are right over actually engaging in real conversation and I have no interest in wasting my time playing stupid games....and winning stupid prizes. These are the types of responses that make people start threads creating threads asking who is responsible for the GARM becoming trash.
For his position - PF Jabari is the 5th best rebounder if you include Anthony Davis and Domantas Sabonis as PF...which I don't. 16th best shot blocker if you include Anthony Davis, Chet Holmgren, Jaren Jackson Jr. and Jonathan Isaac as PFs...which I don't. 10th best 3% 4th best FT% if you include Anthony Davis as a PF...which I don't. 10th most double-doubles if you include Sabonis, Davis, Holmgren as PFs....which I don't. 18th in ppg, if you consider all those guys who play a lot of center as PFs....which I don't. Is there like some magic stock of 7' tall 21 year olds doing better than this that I just don't know about? As if being on the cusp of 20/10 numbers, a block per game and 40% from 3 isn't a superstar. The guy is doing fine. He's already a prime role player, he starts hitting those unquestionably elite marks it's an easy max for a star player.
**** you - I responded to you point by point to show why I thought your arguments were misguided. I didn’t insult you personally or imply that your conclusions were stupid. To some extent, my response was not just to you, but to several posts that keep claiming Jabari is somehow going to fundamentally change as a player and become a star player. And the irony of you accusing me for losing the forest (one r in that word, champ) for the trees is that you ignore the fact that my entire post is an answer to your macro claim - that Jabari has the potential to be an elite role player. Each point I made was to demonstrate that there are enormous gaps between Jabari now and an elite role player like Klay was after just his 2nd year. You want to know what’s screwing up this board? It’s not that we’re mean to one another - this board has always been a bit edgy when it comes to arguing the Rockets. No the problem is that we’re flooded with lazy, half-baked Pollyanna opinions that too often are called out for their shitty logic and conclusions. so again, **** you.
