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[Reason] Senator Schumer Goes Nuclear With "No King Act"

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Aug 1, 2024.

  1. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    [
    And what constitutes an “official act”? What is the definition of that?
     
  2. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    there is no precise definition; Roberts himself acknowledges that that issue can raise "difficult questions":

    Critical threshold issues in this case are how to differentiate between a President’s official and unofficial actions, and how to do so with respect to the indictment’s extensive and detailed allegations covering a broad range of conduct. We offer guidance on those issues below. Certain allegations—such as those involving Trump’s discussions with the Acting Attorney General—are readily categorized in light of the nature of the President’s official relationship to the office held by that individual. Other allegations—such as those involving Trump’s interactions with the Vice President, state officials, and certain private parties, and his comments to the general public—present more difficult questions. Although we identify several considerations pertinent to classifying those allegations and determining whether they are subject to immunity, that analysis ultimately is best left to the lower courts to perform in the first instance.
    I have on a number of occasions mentioned the "sorites paradox" of trying to precisely define inherently ambiguous terms. The term "official" is probably another good example of an inherently ambiguous concept. That ambiguity does not render the term meaningless, any more than the terms "hot" and "cold" are meaningless. It just means there is a need to flesh out and elaborate on what a term means in a specific context.
     
    #22 Os Trigonum, Aug 2, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2024
  3. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    OK. Then I will ask it this way. What would be a concrete example of a criminal act that is manifestly unofficial or prosecution of which can be proven to not intrude on the “authority” of the executive branch?
     
    #23 durvasa, Aug 2, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2024
  4. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    I know that. No, not all crimes.
    1. Absolute and presumptive immunity against all crimes (e.g., crimes against the Constitution itself) under official acts is enough to be extremely dangerous.
    2. Crimes committed for unofficial acts are next to impossible to prosecute when official acts are involved in those crimes (e.g., taking a bribe is a crime under unofficial acts, but executing on that bribe is an official act).
    Your last statement is incorrect (it is only correct for civil cases, not criminal cases). Nixon being forced to resign and then given a pardon is an example against the idea of a "long-standing understanding of presidential immunity for official acts." The foundational principle of our republic since the founding of the U.S. is that no one is above the law. Judge Luttig extensively discusses how this ruling contradicts that principle and the Constitution itself.
     
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  5. Andre0087

    Andre0087 Member

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    I promise to not argue with a stubborn b*stard like @Os Trigonum until the end of this election cycle or he stops taking amphetamines. Good luck to rest of y'all...

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    I understand the decision has been controversial and legal analysts disagree on its meaning, arguments, and significance. I believe Roberts was trying (in his capacity as CJ) to straddle a fine line and craft a decision that went beyond being Trump-specific but respected and covered all Presidents from here on in.

    Criminal acts are criminal acts--including bribery, which is specifically mentioned in the Constitution if I'm not mistaken. I just don't think the Trump decision is the end of civilization as we know it. I also believe that Presidents must be allowed some freedom and flexibility to act in their capacity as President and make difficult and sometimes morally ambiguous decisions: Obama ordering the assassination on an American citizen comes to mind. That's all.
     
  7. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    Well if the ruling isn't the end of civilization then we good.

    What does George Will think of this? I know he b****es about the expansion of presidential powers for decades. He seems like your spirit animal also.
     
  8. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    NO F***ING KINGS!!!!!
    [​IMG]

    Rocket River
     
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  9. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    Is not committing criminal acts really so onerous?

    In the case of Obama ordering the killing of a known terrorist planner, I would rather the burden of proof was on him and his lawyers to show the official act was legally justified rather than it being presumed that he can just kill someone because he's President.

    I don't think investing your desired level of "freedom and flexibility to act" in a single person is a good idea. And this isn't specifically about Trump. There may be another person who comes along who is just as bad or worse. Our political system does not offer an effective filter for people of low character, and the office of President has the most advanced weapons ever devised at its disposal.
     
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  10. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    It's not the end of civilization, but it does mark the end of a fundamental principle of our republic: that no one is above the law.

    My recollection of the Obama case you mentioned is somewhat vague, but I do remember that the ACLU brought lawsuits against the government over a drone strike that killed a U.S. citizen outside a combat zone. I recall that the Obama administration's lawyers argued that the Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF) provided the legal justification for the action. The AUMF is a broad and controversial law that allows the U.S. to conduct military operations in its war against terrorism. The argument was that because the AUMF is not limited by geography, the U.S. had the authority to target terrorists anywhere.

    Whether one agrees with that justification or not, a legal argument was made. Congress could also amend the law to remove such justification. However, this is now moot in light of the ruling that grants the President absolute immunity from criminal prosecution for official acts. Such immunity effectively renders Congressional (and Constitutional) laws— intended to constrain the President—ineffective, highlighting the extreme danger of such broad immunity.
     
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  11. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    again, I disagree with your assessment of the decision; but the point of starting this thread is more about Schumer's (and by extension, Democrats') disrespect/disregard for the Supreme Court as an institution. Putting aside questions of whether the Trump decision was well-argued or poorly argued, it IS a decision by the Supreme Court, and as such warrants a sort of base-level amount of respect. Schumer's proposed act is mostly bad political theater, as usual for Schumer, and not surprising I suppose. But it's disgraceful for a Yale Law-trained Senator and Senate Majority Leader to be stooping so low. This is not an act of statesmanship, but the lowest, coarsest brand of partisan grandstanding. Schumer should be better than this.
     
  12. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    back to Schumer:

    https://blog.simplejustice.us/2024/08/02/schumer-puts-judicial-supremacy-on-the-table/

    an hour ago
    Schumer Puts Judicial Supremacy On The Table
    by SHG

    Not that it has any chance of passing in the current Congress, but if there is a major shift following the next election, who knows? Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer has proposed what he delightfully calls the No Kings Act, the putative purpose of which is to reverse the Supreme Court’s presidential criminal immunity ruling in Trump v. US and strip the president (and vice president, although the Court never mentioned the Veep) of any immunity from prosecution whatsoever.

    (1) NO IMMUNITY.—A President, former President, Vice President, or former Vice President shall not be entitled to any form of immunity (whether absolute, presumptive, or otherwise) from criminal prosecution for alleged violations of the criminal laws of the United States unless specified by Congress.
    Much as the Supreme Court’s Trump decision may have gone overboard with the scope of immunity and, more importantly, the evidence of criminal intent admissible in a criminal prosecution, the “no man is above the law” platitude is far better for stoking the outrage of the simpletons than preserving a functioning chief executive where very serious decisions will involve very hard choices, some of which may very well involve conduct that could be criminal, even if it’s the right choice for the benefit of a nation.

    But Schumer, trying to nail down the outer edges of his misbegotten election year proposal, not only stripped the president of immunity, but also the Supreme Court of independence and supremacy.

    (A) dismiss an indictment or any other charging instrument;

    (B) grant acquittal or dismiss or otherwise terminate a criminal proceeding;

    (C) halt, suspend, disband, or otherwise impede the functions of any grand jury;

    (D) grant a motion to suppress or bar evidence or testimony, or otherwise exclude information from a criminal proceeding;

    (E) grant a writ of habeas corpus, a writ of coram nobis, a motion to set aside a verdict or judgment, or any other form of post-conviction or collateral relief;

    (F) overturn a conviction;

    (G) declare a criminal proceeding unconstitutional; or

    (H) enjoin or restrain the enforcement or application of a law.
    So all the normal things courts do in criminal prosecutions, all the authority and jurisdiction that courts possess should any other “no man is above the law” be prosecuted, is gone along with immunity. How else can Schumer assure that a Supreme Court, particularly this one that the Dems hate with a passion, can’t pull some sly trick to let Trump walk on some “technicality” like the Fourth Amendment.

    The big issue, aside from stripping presidential immunity which would theoretically remain the law as applied to Biden if enacted and Trump is elected, is whether Congress can, by law, strip the Supreme Court of its authority to perform its judicial function. Is there any basis in the Constitution for doing this? Well, maybe. Article III, Section 2 of the Constitution provides:

    In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
    According to Joseph Story, the “with such Exceptions” language refers to whether the Supreme Court has original or appellate jurisdiction. The alternative argument is that Congress can make exceptions which strip the judicial branch of its judicialness whenever it wants.

    While some, if not many, would argue that the Supreme Court’s decision in Trump v. US deserves such treatment, if the Court can be neutered whenever Congress either dislikes a decision or prefers its political choices of dubious constitutionality to be supreme and unreviewable, it can invoke this same power to nullify the power of the Supreme Court to be the ultimate arbiter of what is and is not constitutional.

    And if so, why would Congress ever allow the Supreme Court to find a law it enacted, which it obviously likes or it wouldn’t have passed, to be unconstitutional?

     
  13. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    The Court's decision to strip away the authority of written law over the President was very disrespectful to Congress as an institution, not to mention the rights of every person who is not the President who is now subject to his/her whims (in their "official" capacity).

    And the "No King Act" is also very disrespectful to that decision.

    All this disrespect is very sad, indeed.
     
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  14. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum
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    Gasp.

    TLDR?
     
  15. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    Let's break this down into three related parts:

    Part 1: Which specific part of the post do you disagree with?

    Part 2: There is no constitutional or legal requirement to "respect/regard" any body of government. Such respect is rooted in political norms and traditions at best. Your argument seems to hinge more on these political norms and your expectations of decorum rather than on any specific legal or constitutional mandate. Congress has the power to make laws. It is a constitutional process and legal norm. Proposing legislation and amendments, no matter how controversial, is part of this process. We have seen plenty of examples of legislative proposals aimed at nothing but political theater or political messaging; I would even argue that it's an unfortunate political norm. What is not a norm is choosing to ignore the courts (e.g., when Republicans urged the governor of TX to ignore a Supreme Court ruling).

    Part 3: Just because there is an issue identified in Part 1 (absolute immunity is dangerous is the issue) doesn't mean that Schumer's proposal (Part 2) is the right solution. The most straightforward, albeit extremely difficult, solution is an amendment. I haven't read Schumer's exact proposal, so I can't defend it specifically. But as I said, while political theater and messaging are unfortunately common, they are still part of our process. It is, thus, no more dangerous than it was 10 days ago.
     
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  16. HTM

    HTM Member

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    Do they want to go after Barry O for all those extra judicial killings of Americans?
     
  17. HTM

    HTM Member

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    He's simply an American citizen until adjudicated otherwise bruh. They blowed him up.
     
  18. FranchiseBlade

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    They certainly can and he shouldn't be immune, and the motive should be allowed to be weighed in the decision.
     
  19. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    It was definitely unconstitutional. Definitely a black stain on Obama. Most of our presidents can theoretically be charged for crimes.

    We built a society where our leaders have to commit things like war crimes to maintain America's hegemony
     
  20. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    you said, "It's not the end of civilization, but it does mark the end of a fundamental principle of our republic: that no one is above the law." I disagree that it "does mark the end of a fundamental principle of our republic: that no one is above the law."

    The decision does no such thing, that is just a hyperbolic statement.

     

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