Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade, eliminating constitutional right to abortion

I agree with the quoted point. It's like the far right said, "well, screw getting hearts and minds. I guess billboards with foetuses just aren't getting the job done. let's just go straight to controlling families and women's bodies via new laws!"

Genius, guys (and I do mean guys), truly.

 

As mentioned earlier, there was a nearly 13% rise in infant deaths in Texas in 2022 after Roe was overturned and Texas banned early abortions.

There is also a nearly 23% rise in infant deaths due to congenital anomalies, indicating that women are being forced to carry to term fetuses that could not survive.

Additionally, as mentioned, the abortion rate in the US has gone up, not down, since Roe was overturned. The general population is now more accepting of abortion. Overturning Roe has caused more pain and suffering for families while failing to reduce the rate of abortion. As many of us have said before, the best way to reduce abortion is by working on reducing unwanted pregnancies. The focus on "a cell is a baby" and thus cannot be aborted is what causes this pain and suffering. It neither reduces abortion rates nor impacts the morality of abortion.


Infant Deaths After Texas’ 2021 Ban on Abortion in Early Pregnancy | Women's Health | JAMA Pediatrics | JAMA Network

Results Between 2018 and 2022, there were 102 391 infant deaths in the US, with 10 351 of these deaths occurring in the state of Texas. Between 2021 and 2022, infant deaths in Texas increased from 1985 to 2240, or 255 additional deaths. This corresponds to a 12.9% increase, whereas the rest of the US experienced a comparatively lower 1.8% increase. On the basis of the counterfactual analysis that used data from Texas and eligible comparison states, an excess of 216 infant deaths (95% CI, −122 to 554) was observed from March to December 2022, or a 12.7% increase above expectation. At the monthly level, significantly greater-than-expected counts were observed for 4 months between March and December 2022: April, July, September, and October. An analysis of neonatal deaths found somewhat similar patterns, with significantly greater-than-expected neonatal deaths in April and October 2022. Descriptive statistics by cause of death showed that infant deaths attributable to congenital anomalies in 2022 increased more for Texas (22.9% increase) but not the rest of the US (3.1% decrease).

 

To add to the above the legal complications with the mandating life begins at conception also causing problems with IVF.

 

That was the first thing I thought too, but didn't do math. That is more babies alive in Texas at the end of the day. But, that's not a goal I'm seeking so kinda irrelevant. The most interesting part of the study, imo, is the big increase in children born with defects. You can still live a worthwhile live with birth defects. But between the increase in deaths and increase in defects, it tells you something about the challenges mothers considering abortions face. A significant portion are facing pregnancies that aren't going well and making hard choices.

 

Yes, I covered that in the post you quoted. The 13% increase was an additional 265 deaths. The reduced abortions were 9800 fewer deaths. You can't look at abortions nationwide (where there were many states with essentially zero abortion restrictions) and compare that to infant deaths where there are severe abortion restrictions. In Texas in the same year with 265 more infant deaths there were 9800 more live births. Assuming the infant deaths were related to lack of abortions, that means 9800 more children were born, and from that group 265 died (instead of the 9800 that would have died if they had not restricted abortion). It seems that restricting abortion was quite successful at reducing the number of abortions in Texas. Not restricting abortion was an absolute failure at reducing the number of abortions, as you point out the number of abortions went up nationwide. Your conclusions do not follow from the available data. The best way to reduce abortions is both to make abortion illegal AND reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.

The vast majority of the 9800 were neither infant deaths nor those with birth defects, they are children who are alive because the state said their mother couldn't kill them for her own convenience.

 

The concept that "these kids wouldn't exist if abortion was legal" can be n mm utilized in so many other cases that you would not buy into.

How many children are being prevented from existing when we deport migrants? How many children are being prevented from existing with real estate conglomerates artistically raising the prices of rent and the cost of living? How many children are being prevented from existing from immoral loan practices that make people in debt for decades because they just want a education?


So it always just comes back to whether you believe the clump of cells before sentience is more valuable than the livelihood of the mother. And the argument to claim that it's more valuable is going to require the concept of spirituality and "souls" which isn't secular.

 

Can someone who is pro life explain why human life is valuable to you without these things in your explanation:

1. Tautological argument like "human life is valuable because God created us". Which is a circular argument that places value arbitrarily

2. Invoking any concept of a "soul" or any spiritual aspect.

 

It isn't "prevented from existing". You prevent a child from existing by not having vaginal intercourse, usually without birth control. No one is complaining about women not getting pregnant (or at least I am not). If a woman doesn't get pregnant because a migrant was deported or rent was raised or someone is still paying back the loan they voluntarily took out, that is fine. I am talking about killing children.

 

But I'm indifferent as to whether they were born or not. More births isn't preferable to fewer births. I'm more interested in its implications about quality of life for those who are alive. Those 9,800 prevented abortions are 9,800 mothers with potentially a lower quality of life. The 265 infants who died as babies instead of being aborted earlier in the process represents 265 mothers who have to endure a baby's death. I understand if you believe that every embryo is a human life then every avoided abortion is a victory. But I don't believe that.

 

I don't know how you can say unequivocally that more births isn't preferable to fewer births. We, as society, need more people born. Declining birth rates are a real problem.

Does that mean we should be forcing women to carry children to term? I think it's their body and their choice.

 

You are free to believe whatever you want, but at that point we are having two entirely different conversations.

 

Again your argument requires the spiritualization of a clump of cells.

 

I cannot figure out your assumption. What is the math you used to come up with 9800 fewer deaths / 9800 more children born?

 

There was no assumption or math used (by me at least), I just took the number from this article: Analysis Suggests 2021 Texas Abortion Ban Resulted in Nearly 9,800 Extra Live Births in State In Year After Law Went Into Effect | Johns Hopkins | Bloomberg School of Public Health (jhu.edu)

No, it doesn't, it just requires using ordinary definitions of human and lives. I have already covered this extensively with you and won't be bothering to do it again. You are free to reread the old posts.

 

Got it. I thought you got the 9800 number from the study I quoted, which I couldn't figure out how.