Good to see you getting beyond just insults. I am on left forums all the time where not reacting to imperialism outside that from the US is discussed intelligently. I am coming from a pretty pacifist point of view. Look realistically what is happening to Ukraine. (Not romantically how noble it was to supposedly to fight to the last at the Alamo (lol) etc. Sure life was not great under the Soviet Union, give me freedom of speech, religion etc. As someone who has been a tourist for a a week in two in Russia and what used to be called North Vietnam, I find the rigid ideological enthusiasm for fighting to the last Ukrainian horrible when in another say 30 years the Ukrainians who survive will have decent lives in Russia or Ukraine.
Ukraine is going to be a "vassal state" no matter how you slice it or whatever ideological position you're coming from. Those children Russia kidnapped (plus all the rape, torture, castration, plundering, etc,,.) hints of further cultural genocide like what the british did to the Irish for centuries. Ukranians choosing the West over their "Slavic Brothers" might not be the worst Imperialist outcome...
It’s not… the irony of Russia bombing the hell out of the Russian speaking areas of Ukraine in order to assimilate them is beyond your comprehension. Pretty pathetic you are ignoring the Russian atrocities committed against the Ukrainians because it doesn’t fit into your ideology….
Well said. Some countries actually don’t mind being a “vassal state” when it’s worthwhile for them. Not everyone can be a superpower
They have chosen the Ukraine, Russia can leave at any time....you are Neville Chamberlin in your thinking, it is quite child like. DD
I am one of the few here that understands, and appreciates your viewpoint here even though there's a fundamental disagreement. A couple things I'd note: -For the Alamo reference. The Alamo was a 20 minute slaughter in reality. Not the romanticized depiction we love to fantasize about. Texas won ultimately because Santa Ana was dumb enough to be strolling around the Deer Park/La Porte countryside, and managed to get himself captured by Sam Houston. Putin isn't walking around Kharkiv just as LBJ wasn't walking the streets of Saigon in Vietnam, etc. Just wayyyy different type of war here. Sorry just a side tangent there that bugs me when people bring up Texas history crap. -I'm a pacifist when there's an option to be one vs having a choice of fighting vs subjugation. When Putin started amassing troops in Belarus to invade, there wasn't a pacifist choice to be made. Either way he was going to have to choose between fighting/dead Ukrainians, or making a "deal" to take away nearly half of Ukrainian's freedoms to be subjects of the Kremlin. Even in that 2nd choice, you have to understand that it's highly unlikely that Putin doesn't re-neg on the deal made with Zelensky, and decide to keep pushing West all the way to Poland. There was NO pacifist option for Ukraine to make REGARDLESS of what you think the US/NATO's role was in those negotiations... which Putin never took seriously. -30 years for a country can go by really fast. I don't think you can be assuming that people in Ukraine do want to take the short term gamble that their lives in the next 5 to 15 years will be better as part of the EU, and Western NATO alliance vs. being a Russian Vassal state like Belarus. I actually do know folks from Ukraine who share time between here in Texas and Lviv. I hear from them directly how badly they want to just be part of the West long term, and have their kids, and future grandkids have the ability to travel the world, etc. while maintaining Ukrainian culture. I don't know of anyone that is like... well in 30 years Russia will just be like this or that.... most folks I know aren't thinking or hypothesizing about Russia 30 years from now. They have kids who they are thinking about college in a few years, etc. etc. There is an immediate practicality that ties into the privileged of living in an EU country where you have luxuries of being able to have a kid go to let's say the University of Houston, spend summers at the Grandparents in Lviv, see a nephew in Lithuania, spend spring break in Cancun, etc. etc. This is a REALISTIC short term life that I know personally most Ukrainians want to see as a possible life in the short term. That's not the type of life they'll have if Putin takes Ukraine, and they get stuck in the middle of the commotion for decades. There is a practical reality that I think you are missing here from the Ukrainian perspective which is leading them to NOT just surrender now. So.... I totally understand the idealistic worldview you have, but I do respectfully think you are missing some of the immediate practicalities that make the decision for Zelensky/majority of Ukranian's to ally with the West, and ask the US for help. The US' decision to help here is another topic, but again there are practicalities that make it an overwhelmingly popular decision.
Most Ukrainians don’t want to be part of Russia and are willing to fight for it. This isn’t Vietnam because for one US troops aren’t doing the fighting but there also isn’t a mass insurgent movement among Ukrainians to fight for Russia like the Vietcong for North Vietnam.
Such a desperate move by Putin and proves right there that the propagated idea that they are “winning” is nonsense. It would be like Palestine allying with ISIS publicly as a show of strength against Israel. You don’t pull this lever unless you are desperate as hell.
Putin is really just a thug. Because of his background in the KGB (which really wasn't impressive), and his ability to realize that if he stole money before the oligarchs did (35 years ago), - he is suddenly some bad ass genius that is two or three steps ahead of the slow-footed gullible Russians. The reality is that he is nothing more than the same extortionist that was a low level bureaucrat.
Such an appeasement in 2022 would have only wetted Putin's appetite for more. We have seen this act before. He would have quickly breached any deal. The most probable outcome to the current conflict is a stalemate and ultimate armistice along current lines of control, ala Korea. With no international recognition of the lands he has stolen, or lifting of sanctions. This would still be a win for Ukraine. They would retain their sovereignty over 80% of their country, and their dream of joining the West. Putin would gain a totally destroyed land bridge to Crimea, in exchange for 500,000+ dead and wounded Russians, a wrecked economy, a brain drain of their most talented youth who fled the country, and decades of status as an international pariah. Imagine the lifetime of misery, unproductivity and health care that awaits their surviving wounded soldiers. The fact that Putin is not ready to accept that outcome is why he fights on and does not make a serious offer of peace to the Ukrainians. He retains the delusional dream of a total victory and the reestablishment of a Greater Russia. The weapons provided by the U.S. and Europe are a cost-effective investment in deterring future aggression by Russia to other European states, and potentially China from invading Taiwan.
