I thought it was common knowledge that, when the Bulls' offense broke down, the game plan was to get Jordan the ball late in the shot clock for a shot?
Do you think Curry, LeBron, and Doncic dominate the ball equally? This is the crux of this discussion. You seem to believe every player with similar usage rates arrives at those numbers equally. That's exactly what I said besides making a crazy claim that running systems like the LeBron James system (why is that a thing?) is unselfish. But now you see that playmaking is not incorporated into the usage rate of players. Good. I never said players who played with Jordan and Kobe massaged the ball. They played in systems where the ball and players moved around. Jordan and Kobe moved around and passed the ball around. I never said Jordan and Kobe played off the ball on every possession. If you have to resort to that, maybe that's a sign that you should reconsider your position. Playing in systems named after a player or the heliocentric systems hardly ever leads to winning and stability of a team. Playing in real systems leads to more winning, and teams aren't constantly making big changes. The Warriors won a lot and were stable over time because they played in a system. Before them, it was San Antonio and the Lakers. Even though players like Curry, Duncan, Kobe, and Shaq had around 30+ usage rates, the teams' core hardly ever changed. Contrast that to the careers of Harden, LeBron, and Westbrook, and you'll see why playing in those systems is problematic. We will see Doncic go through a similar experience in his career. He's had Brunson, and now he has Kyrie, but that won't last long. That's because those systems don't get the most out of the team, they get the most out of a player. That's why I say most players in those systems play for a player and not with a player. Those systems lead to teams losing big games and series, and most of the players take the blame because it's tough to blame the star when the star gets his numbers. It has always been better for teams to play a real system, and it will always be better. Whether you are a lottery team or a team with a player or two that makes you an automatic contender, it will always be better. You understand that passing does not show up in the usage rate, so why are you even asking about this? I never played organized basketball. But I've watched enough to know that there is a difference between real systems and heliocentric systems.
Luka has entered into my top 10 disliked players. His constant crying and bellyaching to the officials is beyond overlooking for me. Add to it, his atrocious defense, and there you have it.
They don't dominate the ball equally because they play differently and with different teammates. They all dominate the ball SIMILARLY. MJ dominated the ball the most in NBA history. You are trying to argue he is the one who just takes all the shots but he passes the ball around and all the Bulls play a system that share the ball how is that possible when MJ took all the shots? If he is passing the ball a lot how is he ending up with all the shots? And you are also trying to argue he is not Curry or Reggie Miller who moves off the ball so again the Bulls players just massage the ball and pass it back to Jordan for the shot? I don't understand how you think it's possible for all these conflicting things to be possible at the same time. I never said playmaking is incorporated into usage rates though? I thought you understood what usage rate is? Usage rate is the dude is holding the ball when it changed posession. If you are playmaking all the time you will have low usage rate cuz other players are getting the usage. You understand that or not? That's why Lebron has lower usage rate because he is playmaking for others despite the fact that he is the career pts leader meaning he shot the ball a lot as well. Unlike MJ or Kobe Lebron is PASSING THE BALL and other teammates take the shot which increases their usage rate an lowers Lebron's. Usage rate of all players in a team adds up to 100% if you keep passing the ball guess what you have no usage rate. Ben SImmons for example has a usage rate of 13% ever since he got scared to shoot whereas his usage rate was 22% before his mental breakdown. If Jordan and Kobe passed the ball around why would they have low assists and high usage rates and their teammates have low usage rates? That's literally the opposite of passing the ball around. You never directly said players who played with Jordan just massaged the ball but if they are playing in a system where the players moved around and passed the ball that's all they did. Thats why YOU are the one who needs to reconsider your position because the FACTS show they weren't passing the ball around and moving around. Either that or they just massage the ball and then passed it back to MJ or Kobe for the shot. Pick one, which is it? If you passed the ball you will have less usage rate you understand or no? Or you think you can pass the ball and also take the shot at the same time? This is just pure copium on your part trying to differentiate playing styles and argue one style is better than the other. Every team has different circumstances and different situation you can't really say one style is better than the other. Lebron literally has 4 rings playing that "heliocentric" style you are trying to tear down. The reality is Kobe and MJ also played a heliocentric style of offense similar to Lebron, the difference is they are scorers first and Lebron is a passer and a scorer hybrid. The reality is any team with defined superstars will have a heliocentric system. That's because you want the ball in the hands of your superstars the most. If you look at GSW for example, Steph Curry and Klay Thompson still took the most shots. Sure they passe the ball, but they mostly passed to other stars like themselves. So in a team like Bulls with only 2 team superstars and a bunch of role players, yeah guess who has the ball overwhelming majority of the time? Phil Jackson may run the trangle but if Dennis Rodman holds the ball more than Michael Jordan I'm pretty sure PJ will change that.
It all comes back to you looking at the usage rate of these players and then coming to the conclusion that Jordan dominated the ball more than anyone else in history because he has the highest usage rate in history. That stat explains why Jordan has the highest scoring average in history, but your conclusion that the Bulls ran a system similar to what teams run for Harden, Doncic, and LeBron is wrong. That's the only conflict. You brought up playmaking in a discussion about usage rate. If you really want to gauge the ball possession of a player, and the level of heliocentrism an offensive system includes in a single stat, you would need to include playmaking in the stat. What I have written about usage rate shows that I understand it fine. You don't get that usage rate doesn't tell you how much players like LeBron, Doncic, and Harden dominate the ball because it doesn't incorporate playmaking. That would make a big difference because they not only led their teams in points but also in assists. They were always around the league leaders in scoring and assists. Playing in a system allows other playmakers to be incorporated into the offense. Pippen led the Bulls in assists because the triangle offense didn't allow Jordan to overstep his role in the offense as the scorer. Early in his career, when he was coached by Doug Collins who let him run the team's offense similar to a heliocentric offense, Jordan showed that he was a great playmaker and passer. Kobe's Lakers teams didn't have a Pippen-level creator, but Gasol and Odom contributed more than he did as a pair of creators. Jordan and Kobe averaged around 5 assists a game, that's not bad for scoring shooting guards. But that's not important in this discussion about usage rate. Which stat have you put forth that shows the number of passes and amount of movement of a team? The usage rate stat shows neither. Come on now, why would I need copium when arguing against heliocentric offenses? They've lost over and over throughout NBA history. They have led to team turmoil year in and year out. Not only that, but it is boring to watch.
Where is that from? Basketball reference formula is this: Usg% - Usage Percentage (available since the 1977-78 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * ((FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TOV) * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm FGA + 0.44 * Tm FTA + Tm TOV)). Usage percentage is an estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor. EDIT: I'd like to see the results that formula produces. Post the link, please.
Luka doesn’t get anywhere near the amount of heat that Harden did for being fat and out of shape, and prime Harden was in much better shape than Luka Luka is borderline NBA obese…he needs Ozempic
bruh luka is a great talent we can all see that just from the "eye-test", but for some reason luka is like the only "great" player in history that i have seen where his numbers dont match the eye-test impact wise. The only other player i thought that off prior was westbrook. The difference is russ had an amazing on/off net rating during his prime even higher than hardens most of the time. Look at this article from hoopshype, now i know the star level for this years playoffs was a little subpar, but can someone explain to me how luka was better this playoffs than jokic or even shai from a statisical standpoint https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-playoff-mvps-jordan-lebron-kareem-magic-kobe/ This pre-mature crowning of luka as the best or even second best player in the league, just rubs me the wrong the way especially having followed harden since his rockets career. Somehow luka is on the level of giannis, jokic and embiid when his impact this playoffs was among his worst performing in his career, which means he played better in his previous postseasons where he routinely lost in the first round but somehow makes the finals being "hurt" and being at his worst from a statisical standpoint, that literally defies logic and the only other explanation could be he was "carried" to the finals by the league Luka this playoffs had a .149 win share per 48 and a 7.6 bpm... decent but certainly not best player or even top 3 player in the world calibur, harden a notorious playoff dropper has had multiple seasons in the playoffs better than those marks i dunno maybe im just hating, but it looked like to me that a 34 year old washed harden throughly outplayed him in that first round series i mean this is a washed harden having to play as a number #1 option againist "alledgely a top 3 player"... There is no way for me to prove this but if this was pre-hamstring brooklyn harden that dallas was facing, the mavs would have lost in the first round.. EVEN WITHOUT KAWHI
The conflict is you insisting Joran didn't dominate the ball espite the fact he took the most shots in NBA history. All his teammates took significantly less shots than MJ so how are they in a "move the ball" type system like you are saying? If MJ is moving the ball how come he takes all the shots? Is he playing with 2 balls, one he passes to his teammates and the other he takes the shot? Why don't you reconcile that in your head first? And yes like you mentioned MJ did average 5 assists which is extremely high for a score first guard, that means he dominated the team possessions so much he can rack up 5 assists even if he took all the shots on his team. His usage rate is like 33% that means 1/3 of all the shots were his and he also handled the ball enough to average 5 assists a game. If that isn't dominating the ball what is? So for you the system is only heliocentric if he playmakes? What if he takes all the shots of the team like Jordan or Kobe? I consider a system to be heliocentric if it is dominated by a single or a few players regardless whether he is shooting or passing/playmaking. For example you keep saying Lebron plays in a heliocentric offense but the dude has always played with at least 1 other superstar ever since he left Cleveland. Dwade, Irving, AD, all these players took a lot of shots and dominated the ball as much as Lebron. It's a similar setup to MJ and Pippen whether you agree or not. Luka and Irving also has the same 2 star setup as Kobe/Shaq and MJ/Kobe. 2 stars who dominate the ball and the rest are role players. It's not rocket science. But you are also saying MJ averaged 5 assists right? Harden only average 8 assists. If MJ already has the highest usage rate in history and he also had high assist numbers that means he is dominatingg the ball even more than guys like Doncic or Harden. That's just logic. Lebron, Harden, Luka also played with creators. Kyrie Irving, Cp3, Dwade, these guys dominated the offense and had high usage rates as well. The copium is from you trying to argue MJ didn't dominate the ball even if he took all the shots on his team. I dunno how you can make the claim Pippen didn't allow Jordan to overstep his role, ok what is the indication of that happening? First of all we know as seen on the Last Dance MJ is the sole voice on the Bulls, he was a bully and would publicly berate players who played bad and tell the staff not to give them food after games. How you think Pippen would stand up to MJ on anything? MJ would beat his ass MJ was so fierce even Rodman was afraid of him and went to his hotel room to apologize after he had a bad game. Secondly if Pippen was controlling MJ as you are claiming how did MJ end up with the highest usage rate in NBA history? That's like the opposite of being controlled. So Pippen was this playmaking boss but MJ took all the shots? Huh? That meant Pippen only made plays for MJ, majority of his career assists were for MJ. That's the definition of a heliocentric offense, an MJ centric offense. If you take all the shots on the team that's a heliocentric offense bro. Sorry to break it to you. What is the point of moving around and passing the ball around if the same guy still takes all the shots in the end? How are other guys involved and part of the offense if they are just decoys the entire play?
Klay was never injured againist the rockets from my knowledge. And Durant only missed a game. The rockets up until that point had already done all of their scouting on the warriors prior to the game 6
As I said before, it's not so much what you do it's how you do it. Jordan led the league in scoring every year and in usage rate. If he had done that in a system that involved him making all of the decisions while the other players just stood around, then it would be a system designed to get the most out of him to the detriment of his teammates. That's the problem with heliocentric offenses players like Harden, Doncic, and LeBron had played in. That's the difference between those offenses and the offenses players like Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Curry, etc. played in. Those four took most of their team's shots and got a lot of assists, but those who know what they're looking at know that their teammates weren't just standing around waiting to bail out their star. A team runs a heliocentric offense if one player is doing too much. These are the types of offenses that fall apart if that player is out. In these types of offenses, most players end up sacrificing their game for the betterment of one player. In real systems, everyone contributes and is essential beyond standing around creating space for one player. No matter who is out, the team could still run its offense, and the more talented players sacrificed for the less talented players. LeBron in Miami did have to run a system. It had to be modified after his meltdown in 2011 to feature him a bit more, but it was still a system. Not coincidentally, we saw the best version of LeBron and LeBron's best teams. But you're out of your mind if you think Kyrie and Davis dominated the ball as much as LeBron. If you remember LeBron, with Kyrie on the team, complained that he needed help handling the ball. He said something about needing a creator on the team. Well, you had Kyrie on the team, and you had Love on the team. Both of them were better playmakers before they played with LeBron. Had they played in a real system, they would have had opportunities to make plays. In the LeBron James System, they didn't have the opportunity to do that. This is what I mean about just looking at the numbers of these 3 players and concluding that they played the same way. There's no way you can watch Jordan's Bulls playing the triangle offense, Harden's Rockets, and Doncic's Mavericks and not see the difference in offensive systems. If you watch them and still think Jordan dominated the ball as much as Harden and Doncic, there's no hope for you. Out of those groups of players, only LeBron and Wade played in an offensive system. LeBron with Kyrie was complaining about not having a playmaker on the team besides him. Harden and Paul just took turns playing the same heliocentric offense, and Doncic and Kyrie pretty much did the same thing. I wish this discussion were more about offenses. Jordan led the league in scoring and usage rate before Phil Jackson started coaching him and running the triangle offense and he led the league in both in the triangle offense. But that doesn't mean he dominated the ball equally before and after Phil Jackson. What are you talking about here? I never said Pippen didn't allow Jordan to overstep his role, I said the triangle offense didn't allow Jordan to overstep his role. Pippen and the Bulls did fine in 95 because they ran an actual system that didn't depend on one player. Of course, they didn't win as much, but they didn't fall apart like teams running a heliocentric offense do when they're missing their star. At the end of the day, winning is the point. Another feature of heliocentric offenses is the star player getting tired and incapable of closing teams out. Running real offenses gives the less talented players opportunities to contribute without the star player wasting energy. At the same time, it makes it easier for the star player to get his without using up all of his energy. Running real offenses also makes defenses better and more consistent because they are less taxing on the players and the players get a morale and energy boost from contributing on offense. Every once in a while, you catch lightning in a bottle, and you have teams like the 2018 Rockets or this year's Mavericks, but both of those teams also ended up fizzing out because they exhausted themselves playing against teams that ran systems. It wasn't difficult for the Warriors and Celtics to defend them because they knew what was going to happen, and no mental energy was wasted; while on the other end, the Rockets and Mavericks had to stay locked in mentally because they really didn't know what the Warriors and Celtics were going to do. Real basketball always wins. That's the point.
Luka could never play in the triangle lol, he couldn’t even take criticism from Rick Carlisle when it came to implementing more motion lol. Logic and history says that if Luka was in the 90’s he’d have players that stood up to him like grant Williams recently ( traded and shipped out) and get Phil jackson fired lol
