Ukraine

I suppose you failed to read this point I made:

What Putin says means absolutely nothing.
What he can accomplish means everything.

 

No, but you assume to understand the situation with 100% clarity (it's a fantasy that he would invade a NATO nation) and choose to ignore Putin's words and actions that tell you differently.

What he said means quite a bit. The US intel was highly convinced he was going to invade Ukraine based on his statements and actions. Distinguishing between him spreading propaganda and him stating his intention is possible. Putin has been open about his desire to restore Russia to a great empire. Many, including Europeans, took it for granted. They didn't believe he would invade Ukraine. Even Ukrainians didn't think he would. The mistaken belief was that he wouldn't dare, considering he has too much to lose internationally.

 

You are mixing up things to form a narrative.

1- The US left Afghanistan because of an agreement with the Taliban well before Russia's aggression and intention to invade Ukraine was known. It's completely independent. You attempt to tie this based on faulty knowledge and/or logic.

2- Military advisors thought Putin would take Ukraine in a matter of weeks. Some believed that Ukraine would then fight an unconventional war forever until Russia left, similar to what happened in Afghanistan. The US was prepared to support Ukraine in that fight, as they did in Afghanistan.

3- No, Americans do not want to abandon Ukraine. They still highly support Ukraine and want the US to continue to support Ukrainians in their effort to push Putin back. Where they differ is how (providing intel, $, ammunition, etcs), but they do not want the US to abandon Ukraine.

4- You were wrong about Putin then, so why are you so sure you are right about Putin now (that he wouldn't dare to invade a NATO nation)?

 

If you're a democrat or republican who uses illegals as pawns, you are disgusting.

 

I don't see opposing additional spending on Ukraine as necessarily equating to abandoning it. There's a bit more nuance and complexity there. However, yes, there is a segment that is pro-Putin.

 

So the US is better at honor agreements with its adversaries than its allies. Gotcha.
I certainly wouldn't call it independent. Russia began to amass troops in Q1 of 2021, a full year before the invasion. In March/April, during that same time, Biden administration announced the withdrawal plans and his commitment to follow through on Trumps agreement. I certainly wouldn't dismiss it as a complete coincidence but it would be foolish to think the US was completely blindsided by the troop buildup and Russias intentions.

Who knows. I don't bother with this debate as its full of incongruencies. What we do know is that the US had very good intelligence Russia was going to invade. Ukraine has plenty of time to prepare for the invasion. At this time, we dont know if Ukraine maxed out their capability or were truly incompetent. If the latter, we should have let them fall. We do not know what Putins ultimate goals were. I continue to hear "Well Putin said ..... ". What I do know is if someone is planning an invasion, they do not lay out their plans for the whole world to see. Perhaps Russia sentiment in Kiev was much stronger than the West wants us to believe and it was indeed an attempt to blitz Kiev to support a coup and Putin failed. Or perhaps Putin wants a war to kill off as much anti-russian supports as possible. But I am certain to take whatever is coming out of Putins mouth with a grain of salt.

To stop providing funding and weapons is to abandon them. Vast majority of Americans are not cheerleading a Russian victory.

You didn't read my post

-China and India will not support Russia if Russia attacks NATO. For the most basic reasons. They will sanction Russia.
-Half the globe will rally around NATO.
-THE MOST IMPORTANT PART - Russia does not have the capital to fight a war bigger than the one its in now, nevermind lacking the support inside Russia. The Ukraine 'special operation' is tolerated at best, just like Americans tolerate our 'special operations'.

 

China and India will not support Russia, FFS SG never met a more misinformed person in my entire life.

Why are you such a scardey cat?

DD

 

@basso
@Jontro

 

We may well look back and decide that we should have stayed out of Ukraine support.

However - comparing this to WMB is absurd. First - the USA had troops on the ground and INVADED Iraq and Afghanistan.

In the case of Ukraine we are not putting troops on the ground, we are not invading anyone either.

Also - in the Iraq war, the USA erased a buffer between Iran and Saudi Arabia, a country that kept political and religious extremists out of his country.

Oddly enough - for as bad as the invasion of Iraq was, it is still a toss up from a geopolitical standpoint. Why? Iraq's young people are extremely westernized. The country is split between support for religious extremism and being a progressive democracy.

 

When you take over a country, there is nothing you can do to win the hearts and minds of the older people. You need to plan to be there to push your way of thinking to the younger generation.

That is how Catholic missionaries worked. They would go into a poor country and offer food and services to for the locals. The older crowd would go to service for the free food and stuff with most never really buying into the religion. However, the kids that come with their parents would get indoctrinated while their beliefs are still malleable.

 

Stop! In the Name of Love.

Spoiler

 

it's how MacArthur worked.

 

I expect Iraq to be a big tourist destination in the next 30 years.

 

I am looking at the correlation of the lies/propaganda being spun to continue the Forever War and its pursuit to keep the MIC alive and well. Troops on the ground have zero correlation and its a non-starter conversation in regards to Ukraine.

If the propaganda is based on lies, would we have done it again?
Was the Iraq war based on lies - Yes
Would we have done it over again - No
Was it an illegal war - Yes
Was it ultimately better for Iraq - Yes
But we didn't invade Iraq to help the people. We ultimately did it for the US's best interest. The end justifies the means .... and history is choked full of examples that have gone very badly. 1/4 of a million people died due to this illegal war, no matter how you want to spin it.

And we are being told if we do not stop Russia, they will march all over Europe. This is a lie and people are perfectly happy with continuing to fund a war knowing deep down that Russia is not a serious threat to Europe. Instead, they will say the end justify the means, a million deaths, hundreds of miles of land turned to waste and Ukraine being economically destroyed at least for a couple more decades.

 

Yeah - British and US foreign policy and interference in the Middle East has resulted in some very nasty possible outcomes.

The issue with Iran is very complicated. They are involved in a cold war with Saudi Arabia, who the USA has decided they can work with.

Iran on the other hand doesn't have the money or support that Saudi Arabia does - so they attempt to gain power and control the Middle East through the export of ideology.

Iran already has an enormous impact in the Israel/Palestine situation, and in Syria, Lebanon and Yemen. The Houti's that are attacking US and Western ships exist from Iranian support. Hezbollah, that was getting involved in Palestine is from Iran.

Now - the Shia majority in Iran is starting to have a lot of influence in Iraq and openly is campaigning to establish Iran in Iraq.

So the USA has pressure from Israel and Saudi Arabia to do something about Iran.

Right now - the USA is attempting to get Israel to strengthen their political alliances with Saudi Arabia and other gulf countries.

We could see Jordan and possibly Qatar start being influenced by Iran in the future.

I see the temptation for some to not step out at this point - but I believe the best way to handle Iran is diplomatically.

 

I agree with some of your points - but not others.

First, I don't know if the Iraqi war was actually better for Iraq. They lost anywhere from 150K to 800K innocent people in the invasion. After the war began, their country was over-run with dangerous extremist fighters from outside of Iraq that came and fought a war based on religion - when many Iraqi's did not see the invasion as one based on religion.

After the first Gulf War, Iraq lost 100,000's of people due to the trade embargo by the USA and their allies.

Hussain was a dictator, he took the country by force and he did indeed attempt to take Kuwait. However, the country was not in that bad of shape until the embargos started.

Whether the invasion was worth it for Iraqi's will depend on the next 20 years and how the nation rebounds.

Also - the idea that Russia will stop after Ukraine is really one of opinion. We know that they have been very aggressive under Putin to expand territorially. However, would Putin look at the bordering neighbors and conclude that Ukraine is enough? Maybe, I don't know - no one knows.

I do think that the Ukraine situation is different than Iraq and Afghanistan - there are no US or UK troops on the ground. The Ukrainians are fiercely fighting to keep Russia out. Is it inevitable that Ukraine falls? I would say no, but all it takes is a change in USA regime and it happens.

 

Iraq is one of my 3-4 favorite places on the planet. If there was peace, I would happily visit there often and some of the people I love the most are from there.

Having said that - I would not advise visiting Iraq anytime soon. There are now a lot of Hezbollah fighters and supporters well entrenched in Iraq. It is bordered by Iran, and Iran has a very strong influence in Iraq. There are also ISIS and Hamas members in the country.

While many of the young people that are 20 or under support things like Democracy, commerce, freedom or speech and have at worst mixed feelings about Americans - there are still a strong minority of very religious people that are fighting to turn Iraq into Iran.

If Iran has a revolution and Israel makes peace with their neighbors, and Palestinians are taken in by another nation or the two state solution happens.... then maybe we will see a lot of Western tourism - but that is a lot to ask.