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Ukraine

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    Typically when Russians are feeling anxious about the state of affairs in the world they retreat into slightly manic and unrealistic revenge p*rn fantasies.

    You get a pretty good idea of the level of Russian anxiety by how expansive and unrealistic their "They'll all be sorry they were mean to me when Im rich and famous" scenarios become. Its pretty much a linear progression.

    When they are talking about invading the whole world at once, they're basically crapping their pants and looking for some way to aleviate the anxiety by retreating into a fantasy world.
     
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  2. Invisible Fan

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    It's totally fair to deconstruct and discuss everyone's perception and value of winning. In hindsight, the US never wanted a total Ukrainian victory with a logistically dubious flood of weaponry and hardware at the war's onset because that would've been politically destabilizing for Putin and enough for him to draweven more nations into the fighting.

    You begin to touch his bottom line and who knows how more inclined he is to use nukes.

    This current quagmire fits our interests more just like what the mujahideen did to the soviet union in conjunction with a collapse in oil prices.

    But you're viewing this in terms of "war to be avoided" rather than discouraging behavior to avoid future aggression. Letting Putin off the hook with our unequivocal withdrawal is enabling him again much like the first invasion.

    As for win conditions, no one here is seriously thinking about that line where you slice that cake. Americans still think the Biden Admin wants Russia to collapse as a result of the war and her nuclear weapons will disarm itself. Russia took over a good chunk of Ukraine's sea capability, and a war stoppage will mean turkey has no reason to block naval reinforcements at the Bosporus. There's a lot of ethnic russians there so if there are concessions in the east, that likely means a resolute affirmation for Kiev to join the west via EU. There is no way Ukraine should accept being a buffer state like N. Korea.

    Russia's own petro industry is decades behind the rest of the world in technology. They aren't going to let western dollars rebuild and develop Ukraine's nacient gas reserves without a price.

    I seriously doubt America lacks in fighting treasury busting wars. Maybe we're still "rusty" in great power conflicts over counterinsurgencies, but the stream of data we're getting in Ukraine is unprecedented for any proxy war. Ukraine is teaching both Russia and us how to fight the next face melting war.

    Plus, any analyst I've seen has made note that our unified logistics and communication are still leagues beyond any other threat and that is multiplied by soldiers on the battleground allowed to make decisions without receiving micromanaged orders.

    We better hope the negotiated settlement is favorable for the Ukrainians and that the next American president hasnt tucked and run with a botched job in order to look good for a photo op.
     
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  3. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    Russia has not conquered significant amount of territory during the war. They failed in their major goals of Kyiv, Odessa and several other cities. Off hand the only major city that Russia has taken Melitopol and that is very close to Crimea.
    what confirmation bias? Russia by its standard that it set at the beginning isn’t winning. Objectively they’ve lost far far more people and resources than Ukraine. Your trying to start with an axiom that any war is a
    Lose lose proposition accepting that would
    Be a confirmation bias if your position is that Ukraine lost. That would mean there is not objective measure of winning or
    Losing. You could argue that US didn’t win WWII against Japan because war is a lose propostion.
    Huh? The US was actively fighting and in Afghanistan up until three years ago. US forces were actively fighting in Syria against ISIS up until a a few years ago and even now are taking out the Houthis.
    You’re asking us to play what ifs by thinking about what happens 10 years from now.

    Most of your argument is revisionist by claiming that Ukraine has already lost when by no objective standard is that factual.
     
  4. basso

    basso Member
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  5. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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  6. basso

    basso Member
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  7. astros123

    astros123 Member

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  8. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Biden getting WORK done while the Republicans whine and b**** and do nothing.

    DD
     
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  9. basso

    basso Member
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    you have the oddest heroes.
     
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  10. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    #15130 Ottomaton, Feb 1, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2024
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  11. astros123

    astros123 Member

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  12. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    That ship did not sink; it was promoted to submarine for its outstanding service!

    The Russian Air Force is scared shitless to fly over Ukraine, for fear of being shot down.

    The Russian Navy is scared shitless to patrol the Black Sea or even port near Ukraine, for fear of being sunk.

    And now for the really bad news ...

    Since the USSR dissolved in the 90s (thirty years ago for the non-math types), Russia has stopped investing in their educational system. They are no longer creating a work force capable of creating the next gen air fighters and navy ships or even replacing the existing ones.

    See
    The Slow Death of Russia's Only Aircraft Carrier — Admiral Kuznetsov

    The damage Ukraine is inflicting on Russia will take generations to fix.
     
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  13. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    That boat looks like an old modified Soviet fishing trawler.

    [​IMG]

    This one is modified for spying.
     
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  14. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Modified for not sinking is more like it ;)
     
  15. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    upload_2024-2-2_13-45-45.png

    Here is a close up of the ship when it wasnt underwater. Those diagonal tubes were launchers for anti-ship missiles. Anti-ship missles have HUGE warheads because you are going after a pretty large, robust target and thr missiles are usually very large.

    It also had a super-rapid fire 76mm gun (max rate 120 rounds per minute from a 76mm gun!) as well air defenses - 2 CIWS you can see as weird little lumps on the back deck, as well as short range aa missiles.

    The Soviet Union made a bunch of small ships with this setup supposedly to sink American carriers.

    From the side:

    r334_06.jpg

    It had teeth.
     
    #15135 Ottomaton, Feb 2, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2024
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  16. astros123

    astros123 Member

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  17. Buck Turgidson

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    You have the oddest problems.
     
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  18. Buck Turgidson

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    That's a modified North Korean fishing trawler....it's not a fun boat.
     
  19. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Not a hero, just can’t stand the GOP and their do nothing policies, they have been bought off and screw the people.

    DD
     
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  20. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    Was Barbara Walters also scum?
    [​IMG]


    Notice how the left absolutely HATES journalists who are not controlled by the government. How does one actually become this brainwashed?
     

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