1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Ukraine

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Messages:
    25,675
    Likes Received:
    22,381
    It really seems like a fake thing to give the media a way of making a dramatic horse race to cover at this point. They can be useful at times and there’s nothing wrong with using it to motivate and get better organized. So it is what it is. Take it all with a grain of salt imo.
     
    Rocket River likes this.
  2. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Messages:
    25,675
    Likes Received:
    22,381
    Except the biggest factor in the war in Ukraine is without a doubt the 2024 election. It would be characteristically disingenuous of you to snark and act like everyone else is stupid TDS libtards for believing that Trump would do something as brash as pulling the US out of NATO, blackmail Zelenskyy, or share intelligence with Putin that helps him have an edge against Ukraine.
     
  3. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    128,571
    Likes Received:
    38,803
    There is no such thing as TDS, just people who abide by the law and hold everyone to the same standards.

    DD
     
  4. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    55,794
    Likes Received:
    55,868
  5. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2003
    Messages:
    36,777
    Likes Received:
    35,616
    Polls are accurate...with the very specific demographic that they reach: Old people who answer their phones, respond to mail flyers and the few who respond to email and text inquiries. Young and technically savvy people generally don't participate in polls.

    Know what's a real indicator of voting trends? Voting trends. And they're skewing heavily away from MAGA/ultra-conservative.
     
    MadMax likes this.
  6. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    18,093
    Likes Received:
    8,537
    ukraine lost when Russia got a foothold, which was well over a year ago. But of course you will blame Republicans for an unwinnable war.
     
  7. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    55,794
    Likes Received:
    55,868
  8. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,167
    Likes Received:
    48,333
    You keep saying this yet last I checked there aren’t Russian troops in Kyiv and Ukraine is still an independent country.

    Russia had a foothold in 2014 when they took over Crimea. The 2022 invasion was supposed to take over all of Ukraine. That failed miserably.
     
    No Worries likes this.
  9. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    18,093
    Likes Received:
    8,537
    Can you explain to me why you didn't correct NewRoxFan's post?

    Are you also suggesting Ukraine 'won' if they end up giving up the territory?

    If Mexico (yeah yeah, what if's) invaded Texas and ended up getting rights up the Nueces river, you would call that a victory because they didn't fully invade and control the entire of the US?

    I think what I want you to do for me is to explain what you consider a win and a loss. Your dancing around technicalities and pick and choosing your goal post. Because giving up any territory is ultimately a loss to me. Getting the territory back is a break even. A win is getting reparation's for Russia gutting a hugh percentage of their youth and the destruction of property.
     
  10. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,167
    Likes Received:
    48,333
    I’ve never claimed Ukraine won but they haven’t lost yet. This would be like saying they the Bills won last weeks playoff game while the game was still in the third quarter.
     
  11. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    18,093
    Likes Received:
    8,537
    You didnt answer my question - What constitutes a loss and win? Do you consider it a win if Russia keeps the territory? Don't be afraid of taking a stance.
     
  12. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,167
    Likes Received:
    48,333
    No I don’t consider Russia winning the war if they keep Crimea or parts of the Donbas. They already controlled those in January 2022.

    All that means is that tens of thousands of Russian troops have died to gain nothing more than what they had.

    Now do you consider it a win if a country invades another and loses several times more
    Soldiers than their opponent is a win?
     
  13. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,167
    Likes Received:
    48,333
    To reiterate again. Putin’s own justification for
    Starting this invasion was to take all of Ukraine and end the idea of Ukriane being an independent country. He was talking about not just a historical tie between Russia and Ukraine but even a sacred tie.

    By his own standards he’s failed spectacularly. Your claim they Russia has won doesn’t match Putin’s own reasoning for the war.
     
    Ottomaton, MadMax and dobro1229 like this.
  14. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,245
    Likes Received:
    9,221
    Thanks Joe Biden.

     
  15. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Messages:
    25,675
    Likes Received:
    22,381
    MAGA’s use the term TDS to try and conflate giving a sh$t about the country still continuing to be a democracy.

    It’s a term used that is pure and simply gaslighting, and no surprise that the king of gaslighting space ghost goes out of his way to use it at any chance.
     
    Ottomaton and DaDakota like this.
  16. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    45,954
    Likes Received:
    28,046
    They're more entitled than Bernie Bros. Biden's unconditional support for Israel splintered some of the vote.

    Bidenomics isn't that popular with them either. While wages are higher, they have no assets to enjoy the trillions the government deficit spent on everyone, and have to eat restaurant and service fees at prices 40-50% above pre-pandemic.

    Those poll takers represent more folks who will actually go to voting stations than those staying at home while b****ing online about their "protest vote."

    Voters will change their minds if there are no hiccups to the economy till September, but you already have companies signalling layoffs and the last "hiccup" isn't even a year old.

    Better hope some people die as a result the **** Trump kicks around after a court loss. I heard Führerprinzip thrown around in a podcast, and it's more than accurate to describe the MAGA thrall than whatever complaints of Godwin's Law that follows.
     
  17. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    18,093
    Likes Received:
    8,537
    I am not referring to territory held by Russia before the invasion. I am referring to territory conquered and currently held by Russia.

    Yes, I think Russia has paid a heavy price for the invasion and didn't accomplish their objective.

    That said, I generally approach wars from a lose-lose perspective which is why wars are generally avoided if possible. If we are to have an open and honest discussion, we would flesh out the nuances instead of a binary confirmation biased approach. Russia has gained significant real-war experience, something the US severally lacks.

    Again, look beyond the lens on the microscope. Where is Ukraine going to be in 10 years? Where is Russia going to be in 10 years? Would Ukraine been better off under Russia (see Vietnam). Or is this more like Korea? I would also suggest this will make the PRC rethink a Taiwan invasion. Often the secondary effects are bigger than the primary. What I do know is we can't play 'what-ifs' and revisionist history.
     
  18. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,181
    Likes Received:
    15,317


    Indiginous people of the Americas are all actually Russians. Checks out. So naturally Russia is coming to save these Russians from the nasty Anglo-Saxons
     
    No Worries and FranchiseBlade like this.
  19. No Worries

    No Worries Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    32,754
    Likes Received:
    20,512
    300+K casualties?

    Over 50% of Russian tanks destroyed or captured by the enemy?

    Russian Navy losing 11 ships and submarines that can not replace?

    Trading oil for weapons with China, Iran and North Korea?

    Letting the world know that Russia military reputation was wildly overstated?

    Coming up on 2 years of brutal economic sanctions?
     
    #15119 No Worries, Jan 28, 2024
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2024
    Invisible Fan and Ottomaton like this.
  20. No Worries

    No Worries Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    32,754
    Likes Received:
    20,512
    Alaska or bust! Canada is up next, followed by the Lower 48!
     
    Ottomaton likes this.

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now