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Hamas attacks Israel: Yom Kippur War, 50 years on

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Oct 7, 2023.

  1. tinman

    tinman 999999999
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  2. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Qatar? They have been funneling money to Hamas.
     
  3. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    For Palestinians, accepting Israel’s right to exist is equivalent to accepting the moral legitimacy of their ancestors expulsion and denial of a right to return to their homeland.

    It’s one thing to ask Palestinians to accept this arrangement as part of a peace deal. That’s entirely appropriate. It’s quite another to ask them to accept that this is morally legitimate. That will never happen.
     
  4. basso

    basso Member
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  5. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    Sounds like the Israelis would be fools to accept them living on their border then.
     
  6. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    Unfortunately, Israel can't unilaterally decide that territory that doesn't belong to them is "their border" and eject the population living there.

    Do we require American Indians to accept the proposition that the United States has a "right to exist" on the territory that used to belong to their ancestors? No. In fact, we don't require any resident to accept the "right to exist" of the US; only to abide by the laws of the land in which they reside.

    Same holds in international relations. A peace agreement is formed with clearly stipulated rules that all parties must abide by. No side needs to think it is the most justifiable outcome or be forced to agree that the other side has a "right" to that particular arrangement. They just have to accept it as a condition for peace.
     
  7. Nook

    Nook Member

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    This is factually true.

    The problem I have with this train of argument being made by Israel and their paid social media people is that it is largely irrelevant.

    The issue isn't whether or not Muslim Palestinians or Muslims in the Arab world are good people or not.

    The issue concerns the actions of the Hamas terrorist organization - and why there is so much instability in the region.

    We know that the treatment of the Palestinians in the Gaza and WestBank has been horrendous and that Israel has largely conducted Apartheid.

    All the shitty things that Muslims may or may not have done to Christians in the Middle East really is irrelevant.

    It is very clear that the Palestinians do not want Israeli occupation or control of their borders.

    Until that 800 lbs gorilla in the room is addressed, nothing is going to change - history has shown when you have apartheid, that there isn't peace.
     
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  8. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    Where is this coming from -- that Hamas executed this poor man's family? I didn't see any such news being reported anywhere.

    From what I could find, Hamas claimed his family were killed by IDF bombing, and IDF has responded that this claim cannot be verified and should be doubted. Israeli officials apparently have said that the family were transferred to another militant faction in the south of Gaza:

    Hamas claims Kfir Bibas, mother and brother killed in captivity (nypost.com)
     
  9. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Mayim -

    I don't remember seeing a large number of feminist organizations speaking out against the rapes by Russian soldiers in Ukraine either?

    It seems Mayim - that you have a very biased and strong view on the topic of Israel/Palestine and you are letting that leak into your objectivity.

    Then again - you have called yourself a staunch Zionist, so I am not surprised.
     
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  10. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    They have a recognized border, they don't need to unilaterally decide that it is their border (although nothing really prevents them from doing so).
    If the Navajo had spent the last 75 years launching terrorist attacks against the United States and calling for American genocide, we probably would either require that they acknowledge our right to exist, send them off somewhere they couldn't attack us, or wipe them out, yes.
    They haven't been abiding by the rules, is the issue. Largely because they have decided the other side doesn't have a right to exist. Israel would be foolish to allow them to continue existing within attack range of Israel.
     
  11. basso

    basso Member
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    this looks like a worthwhile book.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/palestine-1936-book-review-the-storm-before-the-storm-23c67da1

    ‘Palestine 1936’ Review: The Storm Before the Storm
    In 1936, revolt broke out in Mandatory Palestine. The ensuing violence would presage the region’s troubles today.


    Jews had predominated in Jerusalem since the 19th century, but on the eve of World War I, they formed only 7% of Palestine’s population. Jewish immigration increased sharply after 1922, when the League of Nations adopted the Balfour Declaration as international law. There had never been a Palestinian state—the area was part of the Ottoman Empire—and the Mandate’s Arabs were slow to think of themselves as a modern nation. When the first Palestine Arab Congress had convened in 1919, its goal had not been to create an independent Arab state, but to attach Palestine to “Greater Syria.” Meanwhile, at least a quarter of the Congress’s leaders discreetly sold land for Jewish settlement.

    As Jewish immigration increased further and land sales drove Arabs off the land, Arab responses became more violent and more organized. Though the British created the Jewish Agency to build the institutions of Zionist society, they were unable to rally the leading Arab families to run an Arab Agency. They did, however, create a Muslim religious authority, the Supreme Muslim Council, under Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. During the 1920s, Hajj Amin drifted toward “a distinctly Palestinian nationalism,” according to Mr. Kessler, one with distinctly local enemies: “the Jews and their British enablers.”

    By 1933, Hitler was in power in Germany and Palestinian Arabs were rioting against the British. In March 1936, the British high commissioner, Sir Arthur Wauchope, proposed establishing a legislative council that would “grant the Arab majority a far greater voice in its own administration.” Instead the London government affirmed that the Mandate’s primary purpose was to facilitate Jewish immigration.

    The Great Revolt began on April 15, 1936, when an Arab gang set up a roadblock near Nablus, singled out three Jewish drivers and shot them. The right-wing Zionist Irgun militia retaliated by killing two Arab fruit pickers. The Arabs of Jaffa then turned on their Jewish neighbors, killing nine with knives, hammers and stones. The British killed two Arabs and declared martial law.

    Hajj Amin, already the head of the Supreme Muslim Council, announced the formation of the Arab Higher Committee, with himself as its leader, and called for a general strike. His demands were “an end to Jewish immigration, a prohibition on land sales, and the establishment of representative government that reflected the country’s Arab majority.” The strike lasted six months and was Hajj Amin’s “finest hour,” as Mr. Kessler puts it, but it also put the nascent Palestinian cause in conflict with the smaller but more organized Jewish community, not to mention the world’s most powerful empire.

    David Ben-Gurion, the Jewish Agency’s leader, responded with a policy of havlagah, or restraint, which he hoped would encourage the British to arm the Jews as allies. He also convinced the British to let him set up a Jewish-run port at Tel Aviv to export Palestine’s biggest export, citrus fruits, most of which were grown in Jewish-owned fields. The first shipment included a crate of Jaffa oranges for the new king, Edward VIII. In an “hour of disturbances,” Ben-Gurion was moving toward his lifelong goal, “Jewish autonomy on every front: political, cultural, and economic.”

    The strike ended after Hajj Amin secretly appealed to the neighboring Arab governments for support. This was the first case of “regionalization,” Mr. Kessler observes, and it successfully turned Palestine into a pan-Arab issue. The British sent a commission of enquiry to Jerusalem, where it conducted more than 50 secret interviews at the Palace Hotel, including with Hajj Amin and Zionist leader Chaim Weizmann. The commission proposed partitioning the Mandate into Jewish and Arab states, and reducing Jewish immigration to 12,000 a year. This was a “major, incontestable achievement” for the Arabs. Weizmann and Ben-Gurion accepted partition as a strategic victory, but Hajj Amin rejected it and called for jihad.

    The revolt continued as a guerilla insurgency. The British suppressed it with tanks, aircraft, mass detention, demolitions, torture and executions. As war in Europe neared, they bolstered Jewish militia squads. The nucleus of the future Israeli army, Mr. Kessler notes, was being “massively trained and armed by the world’s preeminent military.” With partition now imminent, Jewish settlers raced to stake claims, erecting settlements at key strategic locations.

    The Great Revolt’s “singular, undeniable achievement” was forcing a British retreat from the Balfour Declaration, including its fatal consequences for the Jews of Europe. The price was the wrecking of the Arab economy, the exodus of much of the Arab “political, commercial, and landed elite,” and Hajj Amin’s alignment with Nazi Germany. In fighting the revolt, the proto-Israelis strengthened their economy and social unity, and expanded their territorial claims. They built up centralized institutions and a disciplined, experienced army. Before Jewish-Arab civil war broke out in 1947, the proto-Palestinians had “effectively already lost the war, and with it most of the country, a decade in advance.”

    Mr. Kessler, who previously worked as the Jerusalem Post’s Arab affairs correspondent and as an editor and translator at Ha’aretz, is the first to tell this story from all three sides (British, Arab, Jewish) and use sources in all three languages (English, Arabic, Hebrew). He has done an exceptional job and opened new vistas on troubles past and present. The “grim but familiar pattern” that began in 1936—the vocabulary of partition, the dynamic of terrorism and repression—grinds on nearly a century later. The conflict can have one winner, or two losers.



    https://a.co/d/8UrVNjE
     
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  12. AroundTheWorld

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  18. maypk

    maypk Member

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    172 lies per day and he has provided 0 proof. Either you are dumb enough to believe him or you believe people here are dumb enough to believe him.

    Either way, it's not good.
     
  19. right1

    right1 Member

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    I was reading the hostage release list and saw the names of Bilal and Aisha, obviously Muslim names. This article gives clarification that Hamas did, in fact, take Arab-Israelis as hostages.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ti...t-for-return-thursday-alongside-3-bodies/amp/
    The only minors freed on Thursday were siblings Aisha Ziyadne, 17, and Bilal Ziyadne, 18, members of a Bedouin family from Rahat who were kidnapped from Kibbutz Holit while Bilal was working in a cowshed there, less than a mile away from the Gaza Strip.

    Their father Youssef, 53, and brother Hamza, 23, were taken captive alongside them and are still held hostage in Gaza. Youssef has 18 total children with his two wives and 20 grandchildren, and is the primary breadwinner. Bilal and Aisha are the first Arab Israelis to be released since October 7; at least five are believed to remain in Gaza.
     
  20. maypk

    maypk Member

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    So Hamas is not ISIS now? LMAO
     

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