Israel Goes To War with Hamas 2023

And again you illustrate my point why this being reduced down to simplistic ideological sides.

Yes Hamas is evil. I made this point that too that flying paraglides into a music festival to kill and kidnap people is evil. A child being crushed in a building bombed from the sky isn’t evil.

Israelis deserve the right to live in safety and develop economically. Denying that right to Palestinians though by collectively punishing them isn’t good. Taking the land of Palestinians who have simply growing olives for generations isn’t good. Settlers beating Palestinians trying to go to work or school isn’t good.

you and so many others just seem to be induligng in long-standing ideological hatreds. It’s a war of civilizations between the West versus Islam. It’s a war if the oppressed over colonizers.

 

Plenty of Palestinians got to work in Israel.

 

This is why this whole situation makes me
Sick.

The Israelis and Palestinians can’t figure out how to leave with each other but more than that so many others outside of the region aren’t making it easy for them to figure out how to do so. People in the West would rather pick a side and vicariously fight through them.

 

Not really. When you look at the number of work permits that Israel issues, its actually quite small. They haven't increased the number in decades despite population growth among Israelis and Palestinians. They only issue around 15000 permits at any time. That 15000 number hasn't changed in decades. Now I will note that residents of East Jerusalem are treated differently since Israel annexed the whole city so they gained full work and residency rights within Israel.

But other than that group, the number of people who can work in Israel is quite small. There are actually twice as many foreign workers from the Philippines in Israel than Palestinians with work permits.

 

And Israel frequently shuts down their access to work when something happens. They use that as part of the economic control of Palestinians.

Ive heard from Israeli architects that in the 90’s there was a lot of hope that the peace treaty would lead to an economic boom in the region. Israel not only would get a local source of labor for things like construction but also Israeli architects could provide professional services in Gaza and the West Bank. Israeli policies though have meant that Israel has had to import a lot of foriegn labor from places like Thailand. Obviously embargoes on travel and trade into Palestinian lands has crippled their ability to develop.

This was part of what Rabin meant by the Peace of the Brave. That both sides had to get past the fear of the others extremists so that peace could benefit both. Instead we’ve had another 30 years of extremists driving things.

 

And what has it gotten the Israelis? If they were safer then October 7 wouldn’t have happened.

this is why it can’t be solved. Each sides thinks the other should just unilaterally surrender.

 

Most of the debates we have here are useless. This is perhaps the most useless.

As an American there is really nothing I can do to change this. I don’t think anyone is Israel and certainly not in Gaza will listen to a damn thing that I or anyone else posting here will
Say.

What I will speak out though is against having this spilling out in to this country. As someone that watched my neighborhood burn in 2020 and then saw a battle at my country’s Capitol in 2021 we don’t need more things to fight about here.

 

"when something happens"

 

If you're in the West Bank, Israel has actually done a decent job of streamlining entering and leaving Jerusalem. I personally went through the Qalandiya crossing from the West Bank to Jerusalem in 2010 and that place was a complete mess. The Palestinians were just lined up in a seemingly endless maze with buses backed up for hours. But Israel modernized everything and now Palestinians can cross in minutes. The new crossing looks like something you'd see from a modern border which is nice.

Now Israel will arbitrarily close the border but this happens far less frequently than it did a decade ago. Believe it or not, it actually has gotten better. Even the Allenby Bridge crossing from Jordan operates more consistently than it used to.

Now if you have a permit and you live in Gaza, that's a completely different story. Israel has to verify exit permits every day and the reality is that many times they fail to do so in a timely manner (or at all). So workers can regularly miss days of work arbitrarily. This is sadly a product of Hamas running Gaza as Israel doesn't allow for the same freedom of movement that West Bank workers get. Even if you have your entry and exit permits in order, its completely hit or miss. All it takes is Hamas trying to sneak in a blacklisted person onto the exit manifest and Israel will just shut the whole thing down. In fact, this happened during the crisis when Egypt announced it would open up the Rafah crossing. Hamas kept adding Hamas fighters to the exit manifest so Israel and Egypt kept the border closed.

 

No, the best thing is for Palestinian groups to stop using terrorism. Obviously, easier said than done. One of the best ways to help with that is to give them a hope. One of the best things to do is for Israel to offer up a viable and sustainable area in which Palestinians can govern autonomously. The best thing is for Israel to stop their illegal settlements.

Palestinians shouldn't be forced into a situation where they just take the best they can get and doom their future to one of in-sustainability. That isn't something to look forward to, it isn't a good life for Palestinian children or future generations. When you ask an oppressed population to accept a really crappy deal so they don't keep suffering an even crappier situation, that isn't really an option and won't work.

I don't know that either side would be willing to do what they need to do. But honestly, increased security, more international business, and aid with other nations is a pretty good benefit for Israel if they would try. A sustainable and viable land with autonomous rule is a huge benefit for Palestinians. Both sides would get a great deal out of it, and it would be the right thing to do.

 

Yes, there absolutely was plenty crappy about the deal. We've already been over this.

Nobody is going to show they can govern and continue to live under brutality, occupation and oppression, when there is no guarantee that showing good governance will result in a viable state going forward.

There are plenty of reasons why Palestinians have accomplished little in the last 70 years. Western activists advising them, is very far down the list of reasons.

 

Yes, that's what it is all about, sitting in the luxury of my enormous mansion, telling Palestinians what they should do. Great summation.

 

LOL