The Bulls were nothing without Michael, you can see that pre-MJ or post MJ...how much they won. Celtics and Lakers were always going to win titles without Magic or Bird. Just not as much. Those two are the darlings of the league.....
DUDE? Respectfully, hellllll no. I tried to embed a few pics but don't have time to mess around and get it right so I'll just summarize. Both Pippen and Horace Grant averaged higher win shares in the Bulls first 3-peat than anyone but Bird in the Celtics 3, 80's titles. 1991/92 Pippen actually had more win shares than 2 of Bird's 3 championship years. He also had a higher PER than any Celtic but Bird. I made the point in an earlier post that 1991/92 Pippen would easily have been the 2nd best player (rivaling Bird on advanced metrics) on the legendary 1986 Celtics. And frankly it wouldn't have even been close. No Bird = no titles for the Celtics in the 80's. This really has nothing to do w/ the point of this thread so It's not like I'm married to some view; I believe it to be objective fact.
Didn't the Lakers have other superstars named Kobe or Shaq or Lebron...... Did the Bulls have a clear superstar after MJ? Basically the Bulls are not a small market but they never had a great team ever since that team. Had Jimmy Butler, had Lavine, had Derozan, but never close to a chip. Who else would the Bulls turn to? You did not read my snippets.....I said the Bulls are not as important to the league as the Lakers or Celts were. Outside of bball acumen, he did put Chicago on the sports map again ..... Let's be brutally honest who outside of Chicago cares about the Bulls.....everyone was after Jordan.
I feel like you are replying to a different post every time. Dude, you said the Lakers and Celtics would have won titles even w/out Magic and Bird. That's what I addressed. We're already straying away from the point of the thread but one last time I'll indulge: Yes, the Bulls had a clear superstar after MJ. Derrick Rose won an M V P. And your statement that the Celtics win w/out Bird is still incorrect. At some point if you don't provide any data and forget about an MVP as you list 2nd tier stars you should be more serious or just not reply. Just my opinion.
I have never replied to any of your previous posts, so I have no idea that you are pedantic. My point was clearly that the Bulls were made by the likes of MJ, PhilJax and Jerry Krause. I also never intended to lessen the greatness of both Bird and Magic but I only said the Celtics would have other superstars if they did not end up with either one in the draft. Both franchises are getting stars left and right. Lastly I do not think this thread is limited only to the championships, you could talk everything MJ in here, lol....straying from what exactly? Well, Derrick Rose was an MVP but also one tragic hero that did not last many years as a star. Why mention someone who was tragically injured and never recovered?
Not to take anything away from these guys but Magic lakers in year one were miles better than any of MJs early teams. Bird playing with two top 50 players and a stacked celtics squad. If MJ had a squad like he had in any of his three peats, he would have probably won a ship in the 80s.
I thought "Phenom Larry Bird sparked a record 32-game improvement as a Celtic rookie, improving from 29 wins to a league-best 61".. so that means Celtics were always gonna win championships, and the Celtics werent "nothing" without Bird.. Am Ai Right?
So what is the point, mincing words here....... I said that the Celtics would have found another superstar if Bird was not around, given their history You put words in my mouth that I said the Celts were the same without Bird which is not the same thing. lol. Try not to be someone who just jumps at the first line of words. They would have found another way to win chips but obviously Bird elevated them to more chips.
You listed stars playing for Chicago so I amended your list to include your oversight -A super high draft pick -3rd year in makes All-star, All-NBA, and wins an MVP in a huge market If there was such a thing, that would be the textbook definition of NBA Superstar. I understand that since you forgot him you are dismissing his credentials so it doesn't appear as an oversight on your part. Ok, whatever makes you happy. You seem to say a few non-correlated, non-linear, things in your posts which is why it's difficult to respond. TLDR from me to you: -Celtics do not win titles w/out Bird in the 80's (check the early 80's Sixers, late 80's Pistons, etc for the caliber of competition) -Celtics weren't loaded without Bird. Common misconception. -Pippen's peak years rival Bird's on advanced stats and blow away every else Bird ever played with -Derrick Rose was a Superstar player for the Chicago Bulls despite your inability to recall him No dude, you said, "Celtics and Lakers were always going to win titles without Magic or Bird....." and as I already said I respectfully but vehemently disagree and the data supports my view. Not to nitpick but that kind of proves the point - doesn't it? If he's a tier above these guys he wouldn't have required another ATG player + all-star player + ATG coach before he achieved team success. And, if he needed all of that (like all the others), then why is he viewed in a different tier all together? Although as the thread progressed several great reasons were posted including his record in the finals, doing it as a wing/guard w/out a dominant big, his cultural significance, etc.
I see what you mean and your argument is valid and well supported. That said, my reason for picking MJ is once he had a good enough team, he was winning ship after ship against other great teams without interruption. All those guys in the 80s didnt win a ship year in and year out. My two cents.
He partnered with the best marketer of the sport ever in Nike. Nike influences writers, and they influence public perception. The league also chose him, so that helped. There is no way Westbrook has the fans he had without being a Nike/JB player. Lebron would have easily been everyones favorite if he had not given his opinions on things he knows nothing about off the court. He is a brilliant basketball mind, maybe the best ever, but he is a complete idiot off the court. Jordan never tried to act like he knew about things he has no clue about. Once Lebron retires, I think Nike will find ways to make him more of a legend with his sub brands like they did for Jordan. When you look at Jordan and Kobe's environment you see how they had incredible GMs, the same coach which without Phil they had 0 combined rings. If it weren't for Jordan Brand and Nike, the younger gen would have no exposure to MJ same as when it comes to Magic and Bird. Kids grew up seeing those shoes, and they were desirable long after he retired. Everyone knows Phil was the coach for Kobe and MJ, but in a few years people will likely have to google who Lebron's head coaches were for any of his titles. The biggest obstacle for Lebron was consistency in quality coaching and supporting players, I think he spent about 7 years in Cleveland where the best player they gave him was Mo Williams, this is a guy who would be a sixth man on a good team. Had Lebron had Wade from the beginning (A comparable player to Scottie's caliber) he would have a handful more rings. Even when Lebron finally was paired w an older D Wade fans felt like the NBA was over and the Heat would dominate. i think of the things that were in Lebron's control, once he got to Miami he should have just stayed. I think the Heat had good front office and coaching staff to get him more rings, look at how they have out performed the past few seasons w Jimmy Butler. He just really wanted to win one Cleveland, and he seemed kind of short sighted at that point because he knew Cleveland wasted 7 years of his prime and he was desperate to get rings. If Lebron was not from Ohio and felt he owed them nothing, or if he were drafted by a more competent franchise, we would be talking about him the same way we do w Jordan.
Jordan, 6-0 in the Finals and he is the founder (lol) of the Slam Dunk contest. When he was playing in the NBA, he wouldn't have join BLM. He is about selling shoes than fight for social injustice.
I don't particularly like MJ as a human being--he seems extremely self-centered and egotistical--and I resent the stupid, false narrative that Hakeem only won his chips because Michael took a break-- --however, you have to have watched the man play. He was one of a kind. In a lower-scoring, more-physical era, while taking almost no three pointers, this was a guy who was capable of scoring 37 a night. Just think about that. He intentionally stepped back and took on less of a scoring load in the middle part of his career, but what you saw in his third season, that was his talent level throughout his peak. If he wanted to, a 40 point game was just a normal night for him. And he did that while playing elite defense at his position. We will see other kinds of unique talents (we're watching one of them right now with Jokic's unreal bball IQ), but I doubt we'll ever again see one quite like MJ.
Haha, yeah he was but I doubt it concerns fans that much, people never get to interact with MJ on a personal level, it does not concern us. If you are too nice on a battle field of basketball, you get eaten alive. People act like a-holes on this board and they are not even winning championships.
This. I used to live in Chicago, so I was able to watch MJ live from his very first official NBA game home game until his first championship against the Lakers. One of the first impressions I had with him was he was a very athletic player. But what stood out with me, which is often overlooked in conversations due to his scoring abilities, was his fearlessness. He played against the "Bruise Brothers" Jeff Ruland and Rick Mahorn who routinely bashed him to the ground, but he kept on driving and scoring on them just about ignoring the mugging he got. Every time I went to the Chicago Stadium, now the United Center to watch the Bulls game, I would feel the electricity in the air once the team ran on to the court for warmups. I never felt anything similar to that electricity when watching other teams, often at the Summit and then the Toyota Center when I moved to Houston. You are absolutely right; we'll never see anyone quite like MJ again. At least, maybe, in our lifetime until God, as Larry Bird said, decides to make another special basketball player in the far future.
People don't understand what MJ was willing to do to win, man would do whatever it takes. It shows the greatness of Dream, the only man able to stop him.
Jordan is as much a mythological figure as he was the most talented player of his time. I think he is actually underrated when you consider the bulk of his prime came during the ugliest era of NBA basketball and he played what is considered today an inefficient style of basketball and played it efficiently. Also the thing that elevates Jordan in many old heads' viewpoints is simply that he won championships with what was given to him instead of joining up with stars from other teams. It's a much better narrative. Jordan had to overcome whereas LeBron took a much easier route and jumped ship.
