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Ukraine

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. astros123

    astros123 Member
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    2018 MAGA base didnt show up at the polls. 2020 MAGA base showed up. In 2024 the electorate will look very differently than the one in 2022. Whether you hate him or love him (i ****ing hate him more than anyone else) he knows how to attract the dumbest people to his side @J.R. .

    Again if he wins ukraine as a country will not exist no more. Do you understand that? Putin and Trump are literally BFFs
     
  2. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    You’re putting a lot of trust into what Russia is claiming to think. If they really felt that way they could themselves halt offensive actions such as launching missiles into Ukraine and press for a ceasefire. They don’t appear to be doing that.
    Within months? Hard to say remember they couldn’t take Kyiv at the beginning of the war when there was almost no US aid in the ground and Russia was in a much stronger position.

    Whatever you say hunk of Zelensky he still has the overwhelming support of his people, much of the World and the US Congress too. Von Clausewitz and ever Sun Tzu said that successful wars are very dependent on morale of your own population. And we’ve seen this time again even as recently as Afghanistan that a highly motivated force with the backing of the people can overcome a much better armed but less motivated force. At the moment there is no reason for Zelensky to not continue prosecuting the war as long as he has the support of his people. If he were to stop they likely would mean he gets replaced by another leader who does.
    But you still haven’t addressed how Biden can just unilaterally compel a ceasefire and maintain it when Congress is still supporting arming Ukraine, our Allies do to, and most importantly neither Ukraine nor Russia seem actually eager to won’t one. You keep on taking about not living in reality yet how real
    Is it that Biden can actually do what you recommend?
     
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  3. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    And you really think that Biden agreeing to post US troops permanently in Ukraine is going to be more
    Popular, or at least palatable, to the US electorate than the current situation?
     
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  4. astros123

    astros123 Member
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    Of course it would. The majority of Americans support UKR joining NATO which would mean US troops would be in the country anyways? Democrats in congress would not make a scene or fight against Biden especially in a election season. The idea that Americans somehow would care more about the war than gas/food prices isnt based in sort of reality thats shown in polling. Youre also missing that Europeans have already been pushing peace talks behind the scenes more than anyone else.

    You misunderstand me. I 10000% want UKR to win and I cant stand lefties like @glynch who spin disinformation in the name of peace. The reason why UKR was able to fend off the Russians during early days is because we were giving them live intel 24/7 and we were training their troops before the war. We had supplies them tons of weapons before the war.

    Trump is on record numerous times by declaring he will stop all aid to UKR. Tommy tubbervilles holes on the military staff means Trump will be able to staff it with his cultists which wont push back on anything he does sadly.
     
  5. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Yeah man like i said, i don't really care about this horse race style political analysis. It's too speculative to make daily decisions about - thank god Biden does the right thing like in Afghanistan even if the pundits screamed about it.

    Do the right thing. Defeat Putin. Defeat Trump. That's it.
     
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  6. astros123

    astros123 Member
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    Thats fine but you do accept the premise that if Trump wins UKR as a country will not exist no more.

    Trump called Putin "savy" and a "genius" for the invasion.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/23/trump-putin-ukraine-invasion-00010923
     
  7. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Yeah i get all that.

    I don't accept your iron law of Ukraine war - gas price - election result linkage

    It's too speculative .

    The US should continue to do the right thing in Ukraine. Right now that's help them win. The end.
     
  8. Buck Turgidson

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    Hold on...who was the aggressor in the Balkans?
     
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  9. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    And you really think after 20 plus years of foreign deployment of US troops the public is going to be fine with deploying enough US troops to make a meaningful difference in Ukraine?

    it’s no guarantee either that Biden could Ukraine NATO membership especially in time for the election. There are many NATO countries they doesn’t feel
    Ukraine should be part of NATO at this time and it only takes one country to hold up membership.

    Also being part of NATO doesn’t automatically mean US troops are there there are several NATO countries that don’t have US bases or significant US troop present.
    I never said you don’t want Ukraine to win.

    Also my understanding is that at the start of the war the US had not significantly given Ukraine a lot of weapons or trained in their troops. They certainly didn’t have things like HIMARs or Leopard Tanks at the beginning. From what I recall the US pressed former Warsaw Pact countries to donate Soviet era ammo and weapon systems to Ukraine then because the Ukrainians hadn’t trained on Western weapons systems.
    Not denying what Trump said or will likely do if re-elected. What I am questioning is the idea that Biden on his own can do much about the situation. Ending the conflict and suddenly having gas prices come down. I don’t think either are as simple or even as possible as you think it is.
     
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  10. glynch

    glynch Member

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    You would actually have to do some reading to avoid the bumpersticker prevailing opinion that the US bombing was not purely the work of humanitarians. Was all out diplomacy tried? Some of the blowback from Serbia, a difficult case no doubt was the whole largely bs idea of humanitarian intervention which has been used to justify a lot of our "wars" since then.

    As an aside, the bombing of Serbia is one of the reasons why Russia feels threatened by NATO. I know NATO read US is always on the side of angels, but if one likes to avoid war through diplomacy (why not?) you have to take into account how your adversaries or the other guy sees things.
     
  11. glynch

    glynch Member

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  12. glynch

    glynch Member

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    You really should try getting some facts in outside of the same sources that all report Ukraine just about to win. big time. Might change some of your thinking.
    Agreed the price of gas is being overemphasized, but it is better than nothing as a barometer for the economic suffering of most Americans as we waste money on war.
     
  13. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    Really?

    Have you heard of a place called Srebenica? I suggest you read up on it.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

    and yes the US acts in US interests. Shocking! That doesn’t mean that there aren’t times when the US interests and humanitarian interests coincide.

    what did you recommend just not take action against the Serbs because it might make Russia uneasy? how many more Srebenicas
    Do you think would’ve happened if the US didn’t intervene when we
    Did.
     
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  14. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Agree with Astros123 that Ukraine would sue for peace asap if we just stop providing them with aid. They have no military industry of any size. Though I have hated war since I applied to be a conscientious objector during Vietnam, sure I hate to see Biden lose to the disgusting Trump as the bulk of the GOP will turn on a dime and crucify him over losing Ukraine.

    Americans are always up for more troops stationed anywhere in the world, though currently a bit fatigued from forever wars

    You should not assume that the Russians are dumb or evil enough to want to conquer and hold all of Ukraine. Folks outside the usual press believe Russia, is only interested in the Russian speaking areas as the Ukrainian speakers are united in their hatred and would be hard to pacify. Unfortunately for Ukraine ,Odessa is historically Russian speaking. This will probably leave the remaining country of Ukraine landlocked particularly if they do not negotiate quickly and it might be too late as the Ukraine offensive is spent and Russia continues to mobilize its vastly bigger resources.

    Once you can think outside the prevailing narrative that Russia is weakening militarily daily the sooner Ukraine does a land for peace deal, the more land and less deaths they will wind up with.
     
  15. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum
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    Wow, this is some biased propaganda **** right here, folks. What world do you really live in, bro?

    This war is about resources, like every other war, ever. In this case, the recently discovered massive natural gas deposits, and of course the cropland that has always been the jewel of the Ukraine.

    I'd advise anyone who wants to understand this entire war to watch this:

     
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  16. astros123

    astros123 Member
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    im not sure if you're paying attention but european gas prices are even higher than they are here and almost every european politican is polling underwater. Right wing facists governments have already won elections over the past year due to economic issues. The idea that citizens will sit back and support a forever war while gas and energy prices are skyrocketing is just wishful thinking.

    My core reason for pushing a ceasefire is because I want UKR to secure long term peace. Folks here do not take the threat of Trump seriously. If theres a 40% chance of Trump winning which it currently looks like why would you want to risk UKR sovereignty when it doesnt have to be this war. The issue is that UKR peace have been lied to just like the MAGA base is lied to. UKR actually are brainwashed into thinking that UKR is about to take back Crimea.

    Go look at any polling in UKR and over 90% of people think UKR is on the verge of taking back Crimea. People need a reality check . The current pace UKR is on they are no where near any of their goals.
     
  17. astros123

    astros123 Member
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    Putin already said why he invaded UKR on the eve of the war. He doesnt view the UKR people as real people and he sees the country an extension of the soviet union. Putin will not stop until he gets all of UKR under his power. This is why biden should push for a peace plan before the next election so he can guarantee us troops in the country in the NDAA. Yougov did a poll where majority of people did favor ukraine joining nato POST war so i doubt people would care if we had a small presence of troops in the country (500 or so just like we have in Poland)

    The only person in the world that can offer UKR long term peace is Biden. This wishful thinking that somehow UKR is going take back all the land before next november is not based in any reality or facts. If you care about UKR and their people then the best course of action is a ceasefire so we can give them long term peace by placing us troops or something.

    Trump will throw zelensky in the blender and folks arent ready for that conversation. A 2nd term of Trump will be completely unhinged
     
  18. astros123

    astros123 Member
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    What exactly is speculative here. Refinery margins are single handily the cause for high gas prices. We're paying 4x the cost of what we usually pay to refine gasoline because we've taken all the russian refineries offline offically even though theyre doing business in the black market.

    https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/oil/081723-us-refining-margins-cracks-remain-strong-but-refiners-platinum-age-losing-some-luster#:~:text=So far in the third quarter of 2023, USGC ULSD,margins are expected to soften.

    Biden approval rating is literally gas prices

     
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  19. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum
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    You're trusting the word of Putin? Come on.

    It's about the resources, bruh.
     
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  20. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    [
    If the elections were determined by the Gallup daily tracking poll I'd be worried but as we saw last year abd every election since - they're not.

    Also, it's a ****in year from now dude. Gas prices will move up in the next year, they will also move down, they will also stay the same

    You can't base Ukraine policy on that ****.

    US should do the right thing, not the horse race POLITICO daily tracking poll galaxy brain thing
     
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